4/12/09: Some Arab Leaders Worry About What Happens When America Leaves Iraq
Posted by the912project on April 12, 2009 · 141 Comments
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141 Responses to “4/12/09: Some Arab Leaders Worry About What Happens When America Leaves Iraq”The Restoring Honor Rally August 28, 2010
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You are absolutely correct. There are bad apples in every group. Too many are quick to pass judgment on all of religion because of a minority of extreme fundamentalists. However, there are secular fundamentalists as well. Therefore, the problem is not religion or secularism, but rather fundamentalism itself. People just need to accept that others are entitled to opinions and beliefs that differ from their own and need to tolerate those opinions (Providing that those beliefs do not inflict harm upon others). I am deeply sorry to hear about your mother's passing. My own mother experienced a similar premonition at the time of my grandmother's death.
I'm glad that you are indeed more enlightened than to see all Muslims as being corrupted by the evil one. I see your point. It stands to reason that the ones who have had their faith twisted would fall in with the Antichrist. I think that the Antichrist will deceive a lot of people by a myriad of means. I think we share quite a few of the same beliefs, so I don't see it as you pushing beliefs on me. I think we're past the point of that particular worry, you and I.
I'll take a look at the website you've mentioned.
I think this is a good thing, maybe if they would have policed thier own from the beginning we wouldn't be in this situation. What is the very worst that could happen, Iraq ends up a rogue nation like Iran or a lawless nation like Somalia.
I know that our fearless leader is committed to cutting and running but I hope our joint chiefs can make him see the error of his ways. The Big O doesn't have a problem with saying one thing and doing another and that's what he needs to do here. TAKE IT SLOW BRO! I fear that an early pullout will mean a resurgence of violence that we will be compelled to go back in and squash. This will lead to the loss of many more Iraqi and American lives than would be necessary using a well thought out stabilization of the government before slowly pulling out.
I can't help but agree with you. I pray every day that you and I are both dead wrong.
Look at it this way: The rest of the world is moving toward trying to break our dependence on fossil fuels, which will eventually force the Arab world to find another export. Hopefully, a few more of these countries will do something smart like Dubai and start a tourism trade. In order to make this viable, they are going to have to deal with the chuckle-heads over there themselves (As I don't think they will do very well if tourists are regularly being abducted and then shown having their heads sawed off on the major news networks). I'm really trying to be an optomist and find a silver lining about the whole thing, since my gut reaction to the whole middle-east situation would probably make me sound like a tinfoil-hat-wearing crack-monkey. Just trying to make the best of being dragged through the mud, kicking and screaming, by the Socialism-loving majority that has taken over the country…
I thought that the Iraqi government wanted U.S. troops to leave so that the Iraqi soldiers can take over security. But now Iraqis are expressing concern. Well maybe Sen. John McCain was right when he said we should stay there as long as it takes for the Iraqi govt. and security to become stable. Or are the troops going to be jumping back and forth like yo-yo's between Afghanistan and Iraq?
My hat is off to every serviceman and woman who's boots touched Iraqi soil; they deserve our highest accolades. They answered their nations' call and did their job. But, it is time for the Iraqis to start bleeding for themselves. As far as the job being "finished," it is. It may very well take several more years before a solid representative government takes hold, so be it. If things go to crap after the large American presense is gone it will not be the fault of our service people, it will be the fault of the Iraqi people and their failure to take and run with the freedom given them by the blood and sacrifice of our service people. Let's bring em home so they can join us on the homefront as we battle Washington as they try to tax and spend us all into the abyss.
Isn't it about time that the Wealthy Arab nations who are so worried about our withdrawel step up to the plate and help finance the cost of securing Iraqs freedom? They want us to continue footing the bill, while doing nothing to pay for the security forces.
The US has to leave Iraq- The Arabs have to grow up and take care of their own problems without American soldiers playing referee with targets drawn on their backs. You can't spread democracy at gunpoint the way the Soviets tried to spread communism at gunpoint- once you remove the gun everything returns to where it was before the guns were pointing- That's what happened in the Balkans for over five centuries: The factions fight, an empire steps in, there is peace, the empire leaves and they are fighting again.
Haven't we learned from history? I guess not.
That is sadly accurate, he kept saying "CHANGE" but all we got are the same policies "pump trillions into the hands of the people who caused this problem in the first place"
It seems to me that no matter what we do the end of days has already been written. What bothers me most is the lack of clarity concerning America. As things are now we stand in the way of the one world government needed. God never says when something will happen He only says that it will. I have no argument with those who believe differently than I do. We have freedom to believe whatever we want. What a great time to be alive!
It seems to me that no matter what we do the end of days has already been written. What bothers me most is the lack of clarity concerning America. As things are now we stand in the way of the one world government needed. God never says when something will happen He only says that it will. I have no argument with those who believe differently than I do. We have freedom to believe whatever we want. What a great to be alive!
I feel exactly where you are coming from, Wona. What will be, will be. I have a feeling that if the Fundamentalists don't directly cause Armeggeddon, that they will be an indirect cause, as their zealotry fuels the athiestic hatred of all religion, Fundamentalist or otherwise. Even if Fundamentalism (Of any religion, not just Islam), is defeated, we will have to deal with the Richard Dawkinses of the world, who look at religious belief as a form of brainwashing, or a mental deficiency that must be eradicated. As far as America's standing, yes, as it now stands we are in the way of the New World Order, but the Socialist leanings of our current President may change all that. He craves the approval of the rest of the world and will do everything in his power to bend the nation to that end. If the yielding trend that the majority of America has decided to take continues, our nation may very well simply fold into the New World Order. I hope beyond hope that I am wrong…
"And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved." ~ Mark 13:13
The current <a="http://www.mnstci.iraq.centcom.mil/The_Advisor/Advisor_2009/0904/Apr_English.pdf:> Advisor and <a="http://www.mnstci.iraq.centcom.mil/The_Advisor/Archive/the_Advisor_archive.aspx">past editions of the Advisor chronical the great work that has been done and continues to go on in Iraq.
Though there is concern about when to pull out of Iraq, there is hope in the great groundwork that has been laid to help sustain a nation.
Obama: "um, as I've always said… I’ve been against this illegal war from when I was supporting it."
Advisor: "Sir. looks like polls have swayed, Americans want us to win now."
Obama: "Let me say this as clearly as I may, I inherited this war and I intend to see it through…"
Advisor: "Sir. Seems that polls are saying "WTF??"
Obama: "Look, I've said this all along…. let me say it again, I'VE GOT NO CLUE WTF I'M DOING!!!!"
Advisor: "urrrr…..ggmmm the teleprompter sir."
Obama: "Btw, did ya see my cool puppy? and remember, no more terrorists… just foreign disturbance forces. oh, and can you send me some more $ for 2012…. Hope and change, hope and change, yes we can….. together…. transparency…. failed policies of the past… CHANGE!"
Advisor: "Nice work sir. Looks like the numbers are coming back up again."
I already said this, but it's worth repeating. I have always feared what was going to happen when/if the U.S. pulls out of Iraq/the middle east. It is my humble opinion that as soon as American gunships leave the skies and the last Marine boards his ship home, things will go right back the way there were and maybe worse. The middle east has been a bloody and war torn region for thousands of years, dating back to biblical times. We are foolish to believe that we or any other nation will change that. Freedom isn't something you can give away and nor is democracy. Freedom is bought with a price, a price that our forefathers paid in blood. You can't hand it out like a lollipop. Furthermore you cannot win a war in which religion is the centerpiece. You can't kill religion. Every trigger pulled is another martyr made in that instance. When Muslims grow tired of burying their sons perhaps they will consider democratic means. Until then, useless. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. We can try all we want to stabilize things, but unless we plan to stay there forever, I doubt it will bare fruit. It's time to bring our honored warriors home.
Well, the Arabs have something to worry about, but, after 2 years of Obama campaigning and screaming that we must get out of these wars, he had changed his views more to Pres. Bush's views! What gives? His left wing radicals are even scratching their heads, even though they evidently now support the wars?
Obama is now asking for $84Billion to continue the terrible Bush war? What is it that I am missing here?
Obama was against the War before he was for the War. Boy, is it hard to figure what else he will come up with! We do know however, that he absolutely will keep dragging us toward Facism!
Well, the Arabs have something to worry about, but, after 2 years of Obama campaigning and screaming that we must get out of these wars, he had changed his views more to Pres. Bush's views! What gives? His left wing radicals are even scratching their heads, even though they evidently now support the wars?
Obama is now asking for $84Billion to continue the terrible Bush war? What is it that I am missing here?
Obama was against the War before he was for the War. Boy, is it hard to figure what else he will come up with! We do know he absolutely will keep dragging us toward Facism!
Some of those Arab leaders should think about sending in some troops to support our men.
(copy/past) "Iraqi security chiefs have spoken in recent interviews of their worries that some of the thousands of Iraqis being freed from U.S. custody under the security pact will revitalize the insurgency." (copy paste)
maybe we should bring them to America and offer them Constitutional Rights, someone e-mail Pelosi and tell her to get to work on this……
we leave, Iraq will fall to Mugtada Al Sader, controlled and supported by Iran….. they will beef him up big time to clean house of his rivals including foreign militants. all the violence will stop and al sader will emerge the hero… Iran will become the main benefactor and they will gain more power… maybe go after the Saudis one day and drag us right back there to help our little golden goose of the MidEast.
Even if Iraq stays a democracy, it will certainly be corrupted by Iran….. Some idiots don’t deserve Democracy…. Spreading Democracy is going to bite us in the ass… Hamas won an election…. Think they’ll ever leave office?
I personally think it is a mistake to leave too early, I know many have the opinion of wanting our troops to come home, but when you consider how long it took Iraq to get in the shape that it was in before we went in and what it has taken to get it to the point that it is at, there is still a long way to go. I feel that is is a bad set up for for the Iraqi people and they are still very vulnerable to being taken over again.
I agree!! Maybe the Iraqi government will rethink wanting the U.S. troops leaving too early. The problem is Obama is focused on Afghanistan and whatever goes wrong in Iraq can be blamed on Bush. We need a leader with strong resolve and a spine and Obama has neither. Bush made mistakes but understood the meaning of fighting for our country's safety, but I don't think Obama gets it, seems to be weak.
IntenseDebate Notification <DIV>I don't think I would use the word \”just\”. I am sure it was as important and necessary as any. Enjoy the Diva life and thanks for your service….</DIV> <DIV style=\”FONT: 10pt arial\”>
Look at history, we started in Veit Nam with advisors, advisors started getting killed, we sent troops to fight. 58,000 deaths later, the brain trust in D.C. decided we should pull out, as we were pulling Cong started moving in. We pulled out, leaving behind many who helped us and wanted a free country, they were killed along with there families. Now fast forward, We went to Irag, we fought hard we lost 4,000 good people and now the brain trust in D.C. tells the bad guys we are pulling out leaving 50,000 + advisors. History is repeating itself in reverse. I wish I knew where the store is that you walk in, get a box that says instant democracy, just add water, shake and poof instant democracy. Hell, it took us 8 yrs before end had a Constitution. We need to stay and finsh the job completely.
I remember Obama promised a pull out. At the risk of sounding crude, it's that kind of pull out that leads to unwanted pregnancies. If he said we should pullout, than we should pullout all the way. All we have done is weaken those that are remaining.
I am even more worried about the troops being left behind, that no longer have the support of a large strike force. I think they will be sitting ducks to anyone with a mortar launcher and a couple of mortars. Seems these people refuse to stand up for themselves. These people are just one car bomb away from anarchy.
.
That's the way it started in Veit Nam. And we all know how that ended. Funny, when I left, we were winning!
I'm going to have to disagree, OldMarine. I'm a Cold War veteran and there is a huge difference between the Nam and Iraq- The US had agreements with the Republic of Vietnam ("containment") government while the US invaded Iraq and shoved democracy down their throats. We now know that Saddam was playing games and our best intel sources happened to be Iranians who were out for Saddam's blood. The US was tricked into invading Iraq. I'm no fan of Saddam but Nguyen Van Thieu was no champion of democracy either- American soldiers deserve better causes and have always endured the errs and abuse of politics. That being said, I wish the US government (the brain trust in D.C.) was worthy of the American soldier.
If the US wants a democratic Iraq then look at almost a century of occupation -and even then there are no guarantees.
Part two…
A free Iraq (without US monitoring) will most likely become another Iran. The US waited (and illegally provoked) for almost ten years for the Iraqi people to overthrow Saddam and it never happened. The scenario was wishful thinking- so was Vietnam: When the US left there was nothing there to stop the bad guys from undoing all the US paid for in blood. There are no guarantees, my friends.
Your post here mirrors one I made several days ago. Almost identical. Nice.
Great minds must think alike, sorry I didn't see your post.
Bravo Old Marine and thank you for your service. My Dad fought in Nam 173D Airborne Brigade. He was never the same after he came back. Not because of the war but because of the leftists on our own shore. The Jane Fondas wanted them to belive that it was all in vein…it was not. Even though Nam did not turn out the way we wished it, it still made the commies think twice before spreading their cancer throught the world. The leftists solution to Viet Nam left millions of innocent people dead and hundreds of thousands of retutning fighting men, soul wounded. I REBUKE THEM!!!!! As far as waving a magic wand and creating a democracy, I have my doubts. Our Constitution, which is the best the world has ever seen, was meant to preside over a moral people. No form of government that promotes freedom can preside over a immoral people.
We went in to remove a vicious dicator, We did that! We gave a country that has known nothing but tribal rule or a dicatorship. We are still trying to that, is it costly, unfortunately yes, but maybe just maybe, we will plant that seed, and like all seeds a little time, some good weather and some bad weather, it just might sprout and grow, but we gave them the seed for freedom, what they do and what will happened, only God and time will tell. Remember this we fought a war for independence from 1775-1781, Europe didn't think 1. We would win and 2. \”It would never work\”, nine years later (1789) we finally had a Constitution that everyone could agree on and from what I read those 9 yrs were a b_____ . Now these idiots who expect Iraq to have an instant democracy is out of their minds!
President Barack Obama says he will withdraw combat troops from Iraq by Aug. 31, 2010. American commanders are already working on plans to pull out of Iraqi cities by June 30 under a U.S.-Iraqi security pact that also calls for all American forces to be gone by 2012.
I read this, and I just can't help but seeing an image in my mind of the Al-Qaeda leaders marking their calendars with big red markers. "USA GONE. . . .RETURN TO POWER"
Why are the Arabs worried, are the Iraqi's gonna pay us back in crude oil?
We will be stuck in Iraq & the Middle East until We the People demand that our elected leaders adopt policies for energy independence. The only reason we care about stability in the Middle East is the free flow of cheap oil.
Our dependence on others for energy has given the Iraqi people a rare opportunity to be free. If they lack the courage and character to stand, as a people, and willingly pay the price of liberty and earn it, then they do not deserve it.
When will we be able to leave Iraq and the Middle East? The day the people there learn tolerance and believe all persons are equal and live and act by those values.
We care about the stability of the Middle East because of our safety. The left has convinced you through their Al Gore/Eco-Terriorism ways that oil is the problem. Do you not remember the first bombing of the World Trade Center, or the bombing of the USS Cole? Kidnapping for Ransom of handfuls of US citizens in the Middle East, and most of all 9-11??? The Middle East is a hot bed of terroism training camps, financing, and breeding grounds of hate. These are the reasons we care about the stability in the Middle East. If oil was the one and only reason, the leaders of the US Government would have started drilling in Alaska and the Central Plains of the United States as well as increased drilling in Texas. You need to do your homework and read up on the scientific facts. And furthermore, recognize the sales pitch of propoganda.
If the leaders of the US Government were truly interested in our safety, rather than the safety of their re-election, they would have already started drilling in Alaska, the continental shelf or where ever those resources could be found in the US but they haven’t. Why? If they were truly interested in our protection, why are our borders not protected? Why do they lie and tell us that 90% of the arms being used in Mexico’s drug violence are from the US?
For those nut jobs in the Middle East who hate, our Government has a highly capable and effective military with a stand off capability, not only monitor but attack and destroy these assets or training camps. (Satellite images, clear enough to read a note in your pocket, Predator drones armed with missiles, ship launched cruse missiles, Etc.) I’m up on my scientific facts. They only lack the backbone to pull the trigger. You know it was strange that there was little complaining or international outrage when Israel took out an illegal nuke facility in Syria several months ago.)
The true propaganda being espoused is that the leaders of the US Government are interested in anything more than their job security, appeasing the “International Community” and debasing our constitution with every action they take. Corrupt politicians who pay lip service to “Human Rights” when politically expedient, but don’t abide by any of it and tell us what they think we want to hear forget what the truth is.
You need to read up more. We armed Bin Laden…we armed Hussein for US interests…well not actually us…OUR GOVERNMENT DID. We've been meddling in the middle east for decades…arming radical groups that best suit our interests…then stabbing them in the back when we need something else.
You need to read up my friend.
Oh…and since everyone here seems to forget when we are talking about war…WE DON"T HAVE ANY MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THIS COUNTRY IS BROKE!!
The day Middle Easterns learn tolerance and believe all people are equal is a day that will never come, so
I guess we will be there forever.
The middle easterns need to learn tolerance and believe all people are equal?
That doesn't even happen in the US. Did you visit the gay families visiting the white house thread? Or how about our numerous foreign adventures of spreading Democracy by killing Civilians to knock down one terrorist.
Imagine if that was happening here…would you be angry at who did it???
THE PROBLEM ISN'T THE MIDDLE EAST. IT'S RIGHT HERE IN OUR COUNTRY! WE HAVE ENOUGH OIL AND NATURAL GAS, IF ONLY THE IDIOTS WOULD PULL THEIR HEADS OUT AND LET US PRODUCE OUR OWN WE COULD CUT TIES TO THE SHIEKS.
KUMBAYA…Maybe they should all put flowers in their hair and drop acid too. Look, war has ravaged the world since people inhabited it. We, as "people" will never agree with everyone else, and some cultures fight to the death to instill their beliefs on others. It's no wonder other Arab leaders are worried. The U.S. sticks its neck out, not for just oil, but because people everywhere in the world deserve to be free. To be ruled by evil dictators or opressive rulers is not our way of life. So, we will fight to the death to instill that belief upon others. Get it now? We can't leave Iraqis hang out to dry. The country would become anarchist in a matter of weeks. Their military needs world-class training, and their political system is new. Let's help them, not berate them.
Are you ready for the Tea Party?
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of course i believe we went there because of oil ! but not to take it . sadam was selling lots of his oil on the black market to countries and of course oil for food which kept the price too low which our freinds from saudi arabia really didnt like . so it was our job as slaves to the saudies to fix this .thats what happens when your country is controlled by outside forces.after we liberated those ungratefull people where did oil go through the roof! until of course the bottom fell out.
I lived there from 2003-2007. You are right, I've had countless Iraqis tell me that they need "a new generation" and that other Iraqis are "stupid, all they know is discipline". I heard this the most in the south. Saddam kept the Shia'a regions in the south oppressed from everything, especially education, in response to the Shia'a uprising in the early 90s. Yeah, we left them after the Gulf war, so there was cause for Saddam to round up men and execute them, some in the most horrifying of ways. (One big reason the Shia'a have little faith in us, and Moqtada al-Sadr has taken great advantage of this) The other thing is, they didn't understand democracy when we forced it on them. Grand Ayatollah Ali Al-Sistani endorsed one of 216 party lists, and that is who the Shia'a voted for. They called it the "Sistani List". Shortly after the elections, my translator told me he should have voted for a different party, but he just could not find a party that he identified with, and he thought all the candidates were full of it, but since the Shia'a leader said to vote for this group of candidates, he did.
There is so much the Iraqis need to learn and do to take charge of their own security. Yes, we need to be out of there. But, yes, we need to finish what we started. There are ways to do it without leaving tons of troops there. I say it over and over again. The US is the most resourceful country in the world, we should be able to figure it out.
By the way, yes, we went there for more than oil. There is so much about that region people cannot possibly know until you live there. There have been rippling effects of democracy being put in place in Iraq. Jordan and Kuwait have both made advances in allowing women into government, and there are elections being held in places they have never been held before. The more freedom and less tyranny in the world, the better. Unfortunately, these are small steps where leaps and bounds are needed. Sadly, there is a system of corruption in the middle east that is worse than what we have in our own government. We need to get rid of the corruption in the United States, just like Iraq does….
Very good post dyna. I think people (not pointing this at you) forget that after we were independent that things werent all fine and dandy. We struggled in the beginning of our country and had alot more going for us than Iraq does. There are definitely going to be setbacks along the way.
I believe education is something that is key in this endeavor. I think the more people that are educated in that country the more they will understand what they can be. They dont realize what they can be, because they have always been told what they are. It is hard to dream of what might be, when you have always been told this is how it is.
One big difference between our country in the beginning and Iraq is this. We were a new country. With a new beginning. Iraq is a very old country trying to have a new beginning. In many ways I think this is alot more difficult. People resist change alot of times even if it is change for the better.
Absolutely. I've said that in every third world country I've ever been in, starting with Haiti in the mid-90's. Education can bring generational change…good and bad. We are seeing some of that in the US, and not in the good way. We as Americans want things to change right now. That is not how change happens. You cannot turn a battleship on a dime. Not with a country's budding democracy, and not with an economy either. And you are right about Iraq being an old country. You can't teach an old dog new tricks. Most of the military aged males only know violence and oppression throughout their lives (Saddam was in power over 30 years) and they are convinced that is the way to solve things. I had young Iraqi men tell me about when they were children and their fathers would take them out to the Iranian border to lob a mortar or two over the border, kind of like a perverse fishing trip. Its all they know.
If the iraqi leaders are concerend then maybe they should bear the cost of us being there.
Sadly, what is probably going to happen is that Iran is going to wind up in control of large portions of southern Iraq, working through proxies among the Iraqi Shia population. The Iranians are already pilfering about 600,000 barrels of oil per day from that region, according to Robert Baer. The crude goes to a refinery in the western Gulf and the product is then shipped back to Iran, which faces a down economy and critical shortages of refined petroleum.
Ironically, any portion of Iraq that ends up under Iranian control will probably be relatively stable for the citizens living there. However, it is a foreign policy win for the Iranians and a loss for the United States when and if this happens. Whether you are a supporter of the decision to invade Iraq or not, the hard truth is that we handed the Iranians a giant coup, doing for them what they could not do in seven years of constant warfare. When we leave, we leave a sucking power vacuum in Iraq that the Iranians have ALREADY moved to exploit. This is actually one of the arguments Colin Powell presented for not pressing in and topping Saddam in '91- they were afraid of opening up the whole region to eventual takeover by Tehran.
Bob Baer has written some really good books on the whole ME situation. I'd recommend reading them for anyone interested in the geo-politics of the region.
They should worry………….
This is how it will probably roll…We pull out and start a power vacuum. One of two things happen… (1) They get invaded by terrorists or a foreign nation. (2) Any future elections get completely rigged, and they end up with another dictator. The our response will be more falied diplomacy as we watch all our hard work, and lost lives get flushed down the toilet, and they will become like the Iraq they were or Somalia, where there is no government. Im just saying…
i agree with what you are saying here. but i also see other possible outcomes.
Of course some arabs are worried if america leaves Iraq, everyone should be. Look for a complete destablization of the region and hell breaking lose. If america leaves, then the arabs would have to defend their own lands at the cost of arab bloodshed. I may not agree with this war, but I understand why america is there. It's alot bigger than "OIL", it's the start of maybe the third worlds war. Hopefully, man will come to his/her senses and realize the uselessness of what he has undertaken!!
What happens when we pull out???
Easy, the sodomites retake the place and our stabilization efforts are up the duff…
Now Prez-BO sees logic in beefing up Afghanistan/Pakistan boarder ( al-Q )… But probably with the same bravado as we 'tinkered' with viet nam…
Remember when the kids went on rampage in the 60s??? Another dembot dufus dead end…
Sure it will cost a LOT of American Braves, but who cares, the community organizer is in charge so it must be right, eh.??.
Phoooeeeyyyy…. Do it or lose it!!! Don't kill any more of our brothers with your lack of good sense…
What happens when we pull out???
Easy, the sodomites retake the place and our stabilization efforts are up the duff…
Now Prez-BO sees logic in beefing up Afghanistan/Pakistan boarder… But probably with the same bravado as we 'tinkered' with viet nam…
Remember when the kids went on rampage in the 60s??? Another dembot dufus dead end…
Sure it will cost a LOT of American Braves, but who cares, the community organizer is in charge so it must be right, eh.??.
Phoooeeeyyyy…. Do it or lose it!!! Don't kill any more of our brothers with your lack of good sense…
My 3rd and last tour was a multinational one with lots of contact with Iraqis. There is an incredible amount of misinformation on the subject of hatred btwn Iraqi's of differing sects/nationalities. There is also a lack of understanding of the history of Iraq. All you have to do is peal back the area of modern day Iraq prior to 1918 to see where it will go, in my opinion, much like what happened to Yugoslavia after Tito died. There is no sense in chatting about "we should never have gone there" as it in an exercise in futility. We are there, and wishing won't make this go away.
A weak Iraq is very bad as it invites Iran to play in the Arab world – if you think OIF was messy, anything involving Iran at war with the Arabs is going to be much much worse.
The bottom line, in my humble opinion, is we can't leave Iraq.
I agree with your assesment. I too did a tour in Iraq on a Civil Affairs team and saw a lot of the hatred you talk about. You are right, we can't leave Iraq (though I wish we could).
so why then did we go in the first place . maybe obama can be there dictator and we can just elect a new president!
I second that. The US media doesn't know or understand Iraqi's either…so that misinformation campaign doesn't help anybody.
I narrowly escaped being killed by a bomb during the faction fighting that took place in the pre-election period that resulted in Robert Mugabe taking over Zimbabwe from the British. Tribal wars go back hundreds of years. Like in Iraq, foreign powers kept the African tribal warfare in check. As soon as we left, the tribal fighting resumed. Of course, I'm skipping over a huge chunk of history. Please read the article linked below to see just why it is that Rush Limbaugh is so very astute, in my opinion, to refer to the current president of this great land as Ogabe. You will see similarities in Iraq, Zimbabwe, Jihad and what is going on in our nation and what so angers me about Ogabe's disgusting disregard for America. I think this is far more ominous than many realise. What Zimbabwe doesn't have is a neighboring country called Israel. Our presence in Iraq is necessary to maintain the delicate balance of middle east power. Without that balance, we should all fear what might happen if Iran is allowed to regain its death grip on the region.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ART...
I still think these people are going to fight this out they have hated each other for 5000 years and there is nothing we can do to fix that. I say setup 2 camps (one for each side) out in the desert with lots of guns, ammo and supplies and tell the people if you want to fight to go there so all the sane people can stay home.
Just like elections themselves, campaigns of endlessly bashing of the USA have consequences.
From the New York Times:
"Even with the withdrawal order, Mr. Obama plans to leave behind a “residual force” of tens of thousands of troops to continue training Iraqi security forces, hunt down foreign terrorist cells and guard American institutions…"
And a "senior military officer" dispatched to pipe the spin to the Los Angeles Times added another potential role for the remaining American troops: fighting Iraq's war for it. He was also refreshingly frank on the plan's ultimate intentions:
"The senior officer said the troops also could help protect Iraq from outside attack, something the Iraqis cannot yet do.
"'When President Obama said we were going to get out within 16 months, some people heard, 'get out,' and everyone's gone. But that is not going to happen,' the officer said."
Like the rest of you, I am concerned that we may be leaving too early. That being said, I think we would feel this way no matter when we left. The one thing I know we CAN NOT become for the Iraqi people is a permanent crutch. There have been some signs that they are learning to stand on their own, and we have to take the crutch away eventually. What I would like to see, is assurance from this administration that our military will remain ready to come to the assistance of the Iraqi people if they do yell for help from us.
Of course the Arab leaders are worried about our troops leaving, the job isn't done. The President has set an arbitrary withdrawal date in order for fulfill a campaign promise, regardless of the effects of that withdrawal. Because of that poor decision, we will see instability and uncertainty from the Middle East. This, now, will be another problem that our government created that future generations will pay the price for.
Still thinking Obama's planned withdrawal is just all talk to appease his Cindy Sheehan supporters… BO keeps extending the time with every speech…… I mean during his campaign didn't he already promise that we would be out of there by now?
snip:
WASHINGTON (Reuters) – Democrat Barack Obama on Wednesday called for completing a U.S. withdrawal from Iraq by the end of 2008 and said if elected president he would start an effort to help Iraqis bridge sectarian differe"
ya
What would have happened if the US continued into Baghdad and removed Saddam Hussein in the Gulf War instead of acquiescing to Saudi Arabia and the other Arab nations? The difference between now and then is a nuclear Iran. Stability and Democracy in Iraq is an example Iran will never tolerate.
I wouldn't call leaving 50,000 troops behind as pulling out of Iraq. The problem will be what will Barack Hussein Obama do with those troops if an all out war resurfaces again? Will 50,000 troops be enough to contain Iran if they decide to test the limits of the Community Organizer?
There's more to this story than Iraq alone. If Barack Hussein Obama fails in his appeasement to Iran, in convincing them to cease with their push towards nuclear armament, Israel will attack (with justification) Iran's nuclear facilities and an all out war will ensue.
Having an inexperienced Community Organizer at the helm, who's foreign policy of appeasement will only tempt these terrorist states into an all out war that will make the war in Iraq look like kids playing in a sand box and if war is avoided, it will be at the expense and security of the United States, due to the appeasement policies of Barack Hussein Obama and his Demokratic party.
Welcome to the United Socialist States of Amerika.
The Iraq people have had elections, I assume fair ones (ACORN hasn't become entrenched there yet). Women now vote and have been elected to leadership positions. For the Commander-in-Chia to be telegraphing our every move is dangerous and just plain stupid. By stating that we will be out on a certain date, the insurgents will simply sit back and ride out clock. They have the patience. The will make use of that time by fine-tuning their plans to retake the country. BH0's Carter-like policies will likely have us fighting all over the world (and quite possibly here on American soil) for our sovereignty and that of other nations. We are fast losing our 'free and civil society' our ancestors fought for so valiantly centuries ago.
this is obam's plan ! I hate to be a pessimist but !
Jerseygal, don't give ACORN any more ideas! We will be paying for community organizing in countries around the world!!
Gee! Could it be that the Saudis and the Iranians have finally figured out that Al Qaeda will spark a war between them to push the chaos and extremism to the max? No, duh! And our fearless Democratic leaders have finally figured out that being the 'wedge' between these two and their followers is the best possible involvement the US can now provide. The UN certainly won't bring stability to the Middle East…..they can't even get a handle on Somalia!
We have endured the onslaught of the American and world press for years reporting all the hatred towards us, all the incidents that placed us in a bad light, all the terrible things our troops were doing to the citizens. Now that our policy is cut and run everyone is losing hope wondering about the future. We remained in Germany, Japan and Italy all these years after WWll and we certainly could use a presence in the Middle East. Time and time again we do not allow our military to complete the mission. Our polititians use our military as a punching bag to only further their careers. I say either pull out tomorrow or commit to a long term presences. Stop the politics. If no one remembers their history research Viet Nam and see what politics did for that conflict. We preach freedom for others who never really had it yet at home we are surrendering it more and more each and every day. We like our military need to complete the mission.
So the same Arab governments that spew anti-american propaganda are concerned about what will happen when we leave? State building can be a no win situation when dealing with Iraq. I am glad that GWB had the guts to kick the foreign terrorists out of the country and I am willing to call that a win. The people of Iraq now have a chance to choose their future and I hope they choose wisely.
2 bits will get you a dollar — they won't
This is a sad situation for the Iraqi people. All humans have a deep longing for freedom, yet some have never known it. Most in the Middle East have never and will never know what it means to be really free. Sad to say but a lot of Americans don't know what real freedom is either. Real freedom comes from God through His Son, Jesus Christ.
Freedom is only good if you can and will use it. To the Muslims, freedom is a dirty word. It implies the kind of selfish irresponsibility that is easily demonstrated in our current economic mess. They believe in one set of rules and even though there are variations under that rule, their intolerance of others of others will be their downfall, whether Americans right them or not.
I am sure the visions of the Vietnamese slaughter when we left there is on their minds. We leave and a lot of people die. They are barely out of the middle ages…
Power vacuums tend to do that….
I was there in the end. Believe me, millions died and the left never looked back. They never see the rubble they leave in their wake.
Look at all the recent denial we have. It's part of the liberal ideology ( avoid responsibility at all costs).
My least pessimistic estimate would be within 6 months of our leaving the country will shatter into tribal factions again.
They haven't had nearly enough time living in relative stability to work together much less resist outside forces.
I spent 3 years of my life, nearly at the cost of my marriage and my life, and to be honest I'm not optimistic. I spent quite some time training Iraqi Security Forces and dealing with their government both in the military and as a civilian, and it's a long hard battle not just to defeat the foreign fighters (Al-Qaeda, etc), insurgents (Baathists and Fedayeen), and militias (Jaesh Al Mahdi) but for the Iraqis to overcome their own cultural hindrances. The Arab world, especially Iraq, corruption, dishonesty (especially to "infidels"), and outright thievery is not only acceptable behavior, but culturally encouraged. On top of that, Saddam and the Baathists among countless other warlords and dictators have beaten down the Iraqis so much, they have developed a chronic apathy and depraved indifference for anything outside their tribe our the gates to their homes. The Iraqis very nature will sabotage their progress unless they're babysat by someone with an iron fist.
I hate to say it, and quite a few of my comrades agree, we should've given Iraq back to Saddam, under the condition he "play nice", do what he's told, or we'd roll him up in another 35 days. This is a tribal culture that requires a strong leader to tend to the flock, and Alexander the Great understood and took advantage of this 2500 years ago. If you want to understand the Arab world better, read Steven Pressfield's "It's the tribes, stupid".
On a side note, in the Arab world, the Iraqis are viewed with disgust and contempt because a) they're almost Persian (Iranian) and b) they're as much of a burden and blemish on the Middle East as the Palestinians.
I REALLY do appreciate your sacrifice. I hear your dismay. But realize that tiny seeds can grow. Perhaps you don't mean to imply it, but until the Muslim religion loses its stranglehold on the minds and hearts of the people, no one on earth is safe and no one on earth is really free. I think on this day that we celebrate the life and mission of Jesus Christ it seems out of place to be calling for the death of an entire people, but perhaps what I mean to say is that the religion (which is really only a big giant cult) needs to die, not the people.
Imagine what Iran will be like when we are forced to go. Which is just a matter of timing.
Thanks is not enough for your service man.
Remember Korea???
Seems to me, I remember to many soldiers, wounded, maimed, mentally stressed,
and lots of body bags leaving there. We accomplished nothing. What a waist of American lives.
Who is ruling Korea NOW???
Once we leave Iraq, the Al Queda will be ruling in less than 2 years.
9/11 and Afghanistan is just the beginning. Terrorist cells are spreading like a CANCER.
Congress didn't have the Guts to declare U.S. War on Terror the week of 9/11 and probably never will.
We will just keep spending our Service People's lives with no END in site, no GOAL, on FINISH
as Al Queda spreads.
Congress is passing the BUCK to presidents (since Korea), giving presidents the freedom to act as they choose. That is NOT what the Constitution says. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Powers_Resolutio...
By giving these Powers to the President, Congress can hide. If it comes out good, they will say
that is what we expected. If it comes out BAD, they have a way to squirm out, saying
WELL IT WASN'T OUR FAULT.
Do you really want Obama running this conflict without WAR being declared???..
Do you Really think Obama wants to give up the handed down POWER????
It should be handled by Military experts.
Is this why A REAL WAR was NOT declared while Bush & Chaney were in office???
Sorry people, that is why America is not a POWER any more. We don't WIN any more.
Even Pirates are attacking now.
Other countries will continue to attack, until America regains control of Congress.
Heaven help our Grand Children.
<a href=”http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Powers_Resolutio…” target=”_blank”>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Powers_Resolutio…
This thing refuses to go to the correct location. Put an "n" on Resolution.
I think this wikipedia location is being BLOCKED. Maybe some on doesn't want you to see it???
it is my belief there will be unrest and turmoil throughout the middle east until another person unites them as alexander the great did. i also believe this person will be the anti-christ as written in revalations.
When the U.S. was being founded the United States had an unstable government and there were many Wars and battles. Was this country worth fighting for? Iraq does have a hard road ahead but I doubt letting a brutal dicatator rape and terrorize his own citizens isa better choice? Freedom is worth fighting for and now Iraq has an opportunity to flourish and grow. It will take a long while but if everyone is patient and has courage like in the Revolutionary War, the struggles will be worth the outcome. Try to have faith and be positive.
Wish I could feel any of your hope in this situation. Determined souls came and founded America. It was a different situation than a nation of down trodden, listless people left behind in a vacuum.
Thank you for your service!
If we leave now it is highly possible that it will hurt our national security, because Iraq could become a terrorist training ground like Afghanistan. This would be a bad thing for our national security and would have to start this all over again.
That's exactly what I was thinking when I saw this. Where was the worry last year?
I think they should be worried. Those folks have enjoyed a certain amount of stability for 7 years, wonder if they remember what it was like before we got there?
The only reason I would care about what happens to IRAQ after we leave is to honor the memory of our best and brightest who gave all. Otherwise I could care less about 3rd world nation building. Yeah I know it sounds crass, but we have problems of our own. We need to redirect our foreign policy expenditures into this nations' infrastructure starting with armed military border security and the contruction of walls protecting our Northern and Southern borders. We need to fully fund national security so this nation will be able to remain on top for generations to come. We need a President who recognizes people hate us and always will so long as we are on top, but has an understanding it's his job to keep us there. I know it aint gonna happen but I can dream cant I???
The only reason I would care about what happens to IRAQ after we leave is to honor the memory of our best and brightest who gave all. Otherwise I could care less about 3rd world nation building. Yeah I know it sounds crass, but we have problems of our own. We need to redirect our foreign policy expenditures into this nations' infrastructure starting with armed military border security and contruction of walls protecting our Northern and Southern borders. We need to fully fund national security so this nation will be able to remain on top for generations to come. We need a President who recognizes people hate us and always will so long as we are on top, but has an understanding it's his job to keep us there. I know it aint gonna happen but I can dream cant I???
The problem with leaving to soon is that we will probably have to go back later. If we have to go back later, it will be almost like starting over again. The citizens will wonder if we are going to abandon them again. So I think we are leaving to soon.
This is also what I fear. I was raised that if you were going to do something, do it right. May not always be wine and roses, but you finish what you start.
Oh now they worry. For years we had to listen to them whine about wanting us out immediately. Just ridiculous.
From the article……Kareem Arak, the council president, shook his head, telling Shaw: "We feel many bad things are coming."
I hear you, Kareem, and share your concern. Many bad things are coming for all of us……….
I think it's a bit like letting your kid do his thing after teaching him all you think you can, and trusting they'll be strong and stick with what they've learned, and make it better for themselves.
Maybe it's possible that they'll enjoy their freedoms, and choices, gadgets, electricity, etc. On the darker side, maybe power or money might make them decide not to go the old dictator route, or fold under Iran… Maybe we rubbed off on them some, and they learned to laugh a little more and like it… Don't know, just thoughts…..
I don't know that the country is strong enough to withstand the forces they are surrounded by. But again, these are things they shoulda considered when they were shooting off their mouths for the last couple of years.
I remember the advertisements a few years ago where the Northern Kurds were thanking us for helping them. I think if more ads had been run like that, American citizens might've seen the good we were doing. Whether I was for or opposed to the war is currently a moot point for me. We're there, we have what we have. Let's not screw it up!
I hope they survive our withdrawal. I also hope the exit doesn't wind up being like it was when we left Vietnam.
Ah, I agree completely! I really don't want to ever see that scene again!
The Kurds ads were very promising, and I agree there too, with all the bad that was coming out, it was something good that Americans could hold onto and give support from here…
Will continue to support our military throughout all their duties, and support those they achieved freedom for any other way I can!
We certainly didn't think South Korea and Vietnam would 'get it' after we left……and now look at 'em! They like us, they REALLY like us!
I have a bad feeling about Iraq's future. They seem to still harbor the zombie like being they are used to living. Many people find it easier to simply follow direction, like in school. Can't blame them though, it is all they have ever known. Not sure if the army will stand up to these extremists. That and when the US leaves, Iran will attack. Too much oil in that country. That is when they will nuke that area though. It is all apart of their big plan. Take out the a big chunk of muslim extremists and the jews and then split the oil with Europe.
When the US withdraws,I think that the democracy will crumble and it will return to a dictatorship.Democracy is not always the best form of govt.Different countries do better with different forms of govt.It depends on the type of people.People that are hard-headed need to be ruled with an iron fist.According to a soldier who served two tours in Iraq the people are hard-headed so dictatorship maybe the only form in which the country functions.
RageforOrder, My son who spent time Iraq feels the same as you. While he doesn't think they need a dictator like Saddam, he thinks they need a strong individual leader who can tell them what to do. This region is too influenced by outside forces, religious ideologies, and when they do not have a strong leader, they fight among themselves. And their fighting, unlike ours which is words only, is often violent. I don't think they need a dictator, but a form of Democracy that is different from ours, (as you know, we are actully a Republic with Democratic leadership, elected by the people.)
We are getting to a point in America where we have almost as much hatred among our two major parties as the different religious sects that fight over the way that Iraq is to be in the future. What Iraq needs and what America needs is more civility and less coarsing of our behavior towards each other and no vitriol in Congress.
Betsy.
Not to get off topic but
That is exactly why I joined the constitution party Betsy. The government needs to go back to its founding principles and cut out all the socialistic spending. Weve been on this path since the turn of the last century and it doesnt matter which party you vote for (though republicans have traditionally spent less) we keep hearing that this is a crisis and the government is the only thing big enough to solve the problem. The government caused the problem and the only reason its big enough to solve the problem is because weve slowly voted over time to give it more and more power so that its gotten too big to fail itself. Thats why I joined the constitution party. They want to return the constitution to its rightful place in the government as the rule book or the instruction manual. The only reason I didnt become a libertarian is because a lot of libertarians want to legalize drugs and I just cant get behind that.
On topic though, we have given them what 12 or 13 provinces back? out of 16… so we are really effectively out of there already (and this was before the messiah was elected). Iraq like Israel knows it just has to call the pentagon and we'll send help should something go wrong… well in theory we will. Thats assuming they can get enough politicians to agree on the idea.
I cannot accept an oligarchy for Iraq or any of the Islamic people. I will NEVER be able to accept blind submission under sharia law unless they can agree to let us live and let live—which they will NEVER DO. Their ideas of religion are based not on freedom, but fear. As such, this is not a religion and that way of life and that culture need to be removed. And we cannot be timid about it, either. We have 'removed' other religions and cultures before, which continued to threaten, coerce, kill, and defy—native American tribes that just didn't get that it was in their best interest to make peace and keep it; the Japanese living under the semi-feudalism, etc. The Muslims have shown their extreme inflexibility in their dealings with Israel. They should be paid back in kind.
yes and it is very annoying
so why didnt you leave a comment on the subject?
On the subject of the native American tribes,I just finished watching a TV series called Into the West.It is a different viewpoint and is certainly enlightening.The natives were provoked.Imagine a foreign people just coming and taking your land.Wouldn't you fight to keep what is rightfully yours?
NancyNurse, Unless you live in Iraq, why do you think you have to accept their way of life? We will never have another cursade and try to fight and conquer over religion. They are what they are. Our fight with al Qaeda is a totally different battle. They want to ruin and control our way of life. The Iraqis have no ambition to destroy our country. For the most part they want to live in peace. It's the radicals of their religion who keep that from happening. But they are used to a form of government that tells them what to do. Untill they are taught how to get along with each other, they need someone who wields a heavy hand. They need a strong leader, but a leader who is not evil.
What we did to the Native Americans was wrong.
The only ones who can come to an agreement on the Israel Palestine situation, are the two countries. They have to both come to a point where they admit each exists, and has a right to live in peace, and on their own plot of earth. Americans can never fully understand the angst that exists between the two.
Of course. But the Native folks didn't have land ownership and properties per se. And I saw the same series. The big question was never landownership and rights, but ambush attacks to drive out settlers and huge religious differences. The series emphasized the 're-education' of native tribes to take away and diminish culture. But the part of the story that isn't told are the native tribes that figured out early how to live alongside white people and play by their rules. The Ojibway (Chippewa, for example) and other groups found in Ohio, Indiana and in the Pacific NW. They learned how to unify, stay separate but not to provoke whites. We are very good friends with an Ojibway Elder and know quite a bit of their culture. Most native tribes were nomadic and had no set boundaries or lands. My great grandmother was cherokee who landed in Oklahoma. They had a much different mind set than the Apache, the Sioux, the Arapahoe, etc. Many people believe that Natives in the midwest just disappeared, but they didn't they didn't subscribe to reservation life. Even Eastern groups like the Lenape survive because they learned how to live near or in our culture. Although they didn't maintain a huge identity, the probably have a stronger cultural influence left in play than did white groups like the Dutch, for example. my husband's grandparents were from Holland. He speaks not one word of Dutch and has no idea of Dutch customs at all. Like the Muslims, their biggest beef was being judged and held accountable by white/anglo law that they didn't understand or ascribe to while their ways withered and died with each generation of interbreeding, and acculturation. It really wasn't a 'land thing.' It was a 'law' and 'power' thing.
The Muslims have a way bigger number than the natives.I just don't see us winning the war without exterminating lots of people.Most I think will resist the ways of foreigners.They are a hard-headed people.I personally think that we should stay out of foreign affairs.We should keep to ourselves and only attack if we are attacked.And when we make war we should come down on the enemy as hard as possible in order to send a message to the rest of the world not to mess with the US.If we had stayed out of the Middle East,9/11 may have never happened.If we had kept to ourselves,the Muslims may have returned the favor.Since we are in this war,I see only 3 choices.1)We have a massive troop surge and kill tons of people in order to attain complete victory.2)We keep smaller amounts of troops there, possibly forever.3)We withdraw all our troops and hope that Iraq can fend for itself.
I agree. Although I've never travelled to the region, I have read plenty over the past few years about the area and their politics and religion. These people have been taught from the time they are toddlers to believe this is the way it should and must be forever. Change will not come easily and we can't demand they adopt a democracy. The seeds have been planted and the roots are growing. We should stay until they are firmly established. If we don't, we risk a complete return to the politics of old. You are a very interesting person. What type work did you do…generally speaking.
"Shortly after the elections, my translator told me he should have voted for a different party, but he just could not find a party that he identified with….." This comment reminds me of our recent presidential election; buyer's remorse. I guess it's everywhere.
I'm worried about those of our troops that we leave behind. But General Petraeus is probably way ahead of all of us in the planning of our pullout. Sadly, I think Iraq needs our full support for a long time to come which is politically incorrect given who we have in power right now. I will probably sit down and cry if we lose all that we have gained in that region due to the bad guys coming back in.
I have such empathy for any and all who fought in Viet Nam. I lost my first husband there, as did many military wives. Leaving early truly broke my heart because I felt his good work was completely in vain. That is a very hard thing to come to terms with especially when our husbands and brothers come home in closed caskets. I remember seeing all the Viet Nam protesters and calling our troops murderers. People have no idea the horrible impact that has on families. I am glad you are with us Old Marine!
Sweet beautiful woman, you lost a husband in Viet Nam? Damn it!!!!
Damn it….but I can't fight that battle, your husband already did and just like OldMarine, I know your husband and OldMarine won that war.
Take care Islandsox and OldMarine. I love you both.
Through its been a long time, my sympathy to you. The thing about this whole mess now is the same idiots that were protesting in the 60's are now the same people that are in Congress, ironic isn't it. They learned that if they get the press on their side then, they could do it now. Guess what same crap, but with one difference, those of us from back then wouldn't allow it. I was thanked by a young Marine who was wounded and awarded a Purple Heart. It caught me off guard, and I asked him why he is thanking me, and he frankly said, with you guys from Veit Nam, we didn't get the same treatment you guys did, you lead the way. Needless to say, for once in my life, I was speechless. I never could understand how a person could support the troops, yet not the war.
I just did support stuff for the military. Pretty boring, but it got me exposed to a lot of places, up close and for extended periods of time. I'm a domestic diva now…lol
Shoulder-to-Shoulder, we will retake our America and the progressives will fail. Prosperity, liberty, freedom, neighbors, love, caring and faith…..these are things that are important, not government running our lives on an agenda we don't want. Bad things will develop over the next four years, but Americans will wake up and realize that freedom from government is what they need. We saw a perfect example from our Navy today. If our administration doesn't get it, the people do. We want people like our military because we need them in today's world. They have the same values as we do.
"I never could understand how a person could support the troops, yet not the war."
It's the same way a person could want to destroy Capitalism and the freedoms that our country was founded on … and still be patriotic.
I just hope that the fight continues after the 15th. This fight must keep going, if not, our America is gone the way ofall great societies.
You are on point this morning my friend. I've been riding that horse too. The tea parties should be just the beginning.
Simple, you support America but not the current government right? There ya go. Same thing.
I agree Morgue- Sometimes the best support for our troops is to oppose war. I supported Korea, `nam, and Grenada but I saw no reason for US presence in Haiti, the Balkans, Iraq or Afghanistan.
Since Congress has surrendered their warmaking powers to the president, our nation is doomed to these ill-planned nonwars with no end in sight. I have a friend going back to Iraq for his fifth tour and another, wounded in Baghdad a year ago (and almost killed), leaving for Afghanistan next month. There is no plan, no end in sight.
How much do you trust the "brain trust in D.C?"
Who knows what is going in our country, I feel too many people want to see us become a country of Europe, or of the world. These people do not seem to remember, America was the first truly republic, with a Constitution that defined the laws of the land. We were the first country that did not limit how far one can go with hard work. So in my mind, if we were first in the facts I just mentioned, and I know there are many more, but we were first therefore we are a unique nation in the world and therefore being unique we ought to protect theis Country, because we are an endanger species. Therefore we ought to get special protection, but since we want get the…..WE'VE GOT THE MEN AND WOMEN OF OUR ARMED FROCES…..GOD BLESS THEM!
I must say, the stance in your first posting is much different that the response to my posting. I agree with you opinion of our US officials in your second posting, as well as your point on the US/Mexico Border and assessment of corrupt politicians. So why? I ask you, the statement of energy dependence?
Yes, our elected officials are more concerned about their jobs then our safety; but the basis of the current situation in Iraq and Afghanistan is our safety following 9-11. Not energy dependence. I feel that the situation with the southern border of the United States is 100% a popularity contest. Our elected officials will not stand up against illegal immigration due to the fact that we have been infiltrated by thousands if not millions of illegal’s whom have found loopholes in our citizenship and voting rights in order to have a strangle hold on our elections. If you "piss off" the masses (being the illegals) you don't get elected. (See next comment.)
There is much more going on in the Middle East in regards to having "the backbone to pull the trigger" than most Americans know. The media only presents the negative actions in the Middle East taken by US solders, not the positives. My husband has been in the military for many years and is currently in Iraq. Not one of the positives that he has been involved in is spoken of. GWB had the backbone, I supported him and his decisions 100%; although I may has disagreed with some of them, his eye was on the ball. Unfortunately, due to the propaganda of the media assisted by ACORN, CODE PINK, and other left wing extremists, we now have BHO who has no clue! And yes, BHO is only concerned about himself. His "appeasing the International Community and debasing our constitution" is nothing but a popularity contest move. The Observer stated prior to going to the G20 that “Holding high-powered meetings with world leaders will allow Obama to remind Americans how much the rest of the world still admires him.” That one statement alone says it all.
You are very right. It will take time. What do you think about breaking Iraq up into smaller countries?
Yes there is alot going on in the Middle East but Without our reliance on Cheap Middle Eastern Oil we would not have to worry about these terrorists. Without the revenues generated from oil the Islamic nut jobs would not have the means to do more than kick sand in our collective faces.
The Middle East has been in a state of F.U.B.A.R. since the beginning of recorded history. There have always been wars, disputes and unrest amongst these peoples since recorded history. Islamic extremisms hatred of Western society and America started likely after a United Nations resolution in 1947 that re-established Jewish state. The West has supported Israel ever since its brief war of independence over the Arab States.
(see next comment)
David,
That's a horrible comparison and here's why. Yes, the gays face criticism and even hate-speech here. That's the down-side to free speech. But they are tolerated here. Violence against gays is not held as acceptable here in America. It is in many parts of the Middle East.
And yes, war is hell. The politicians tell us lovely stories about our reasons for getting involved militarily in these nations, because it's easier for us to accept that we are "spreading democracy" or "bringing liberty to nations", but that's not the real reason that we're over there. The short and ugly fact is that we are over there because we need to have someone in power other than a genocidal zealot, and the people of these countries are unable to facilitate this on their own. Rare (if not non-existant) is the war in which non-combatants are not caught in the cross-fire. Especially when they willingly harbor the targets in their midst.
Coucheya, I'm not that familar withyour party. Does that mean you also had a candidate for the Presidency?
Betsy
Yes in 38 (I think) states. His name was Chuck Baldwin. He received a little over 100,000 votes nationwide. This was also before I actually joined the party (I just joined it a month ago) so I voted for McCain. Plus the constitution party isnt on the ballot in NC so I would have had to write in anyway. It took me many hours of self debate and debate online with friends to decide whether or not I'd switch parties for the 08 election or not. I ended up not switching because I wanted to try to stop obama from being elected and while I wasnt voting FOR someone I believed in whole heartedly and I was voting for the lesser of 2 evils.
In the end the constitution party (http://www.constitutionparty.com) is the only 100% pro gun, 100% pro life and 100% secure border party out there and they embody everything that the conservatives in the republican party have been espousing to be for decades. The problem is the conservatives like Rush and Sean dont want to leave the party for a 3rd party that will not win any major election for decades. They want to be able to enact policies and you cant do that if you arent the party in power. Which makes perfect sense but I couldnt put up with the republican leadership saying "we need to be more like the democrats" and "we need to moderate our stance to be more inclusive" when that was the problem in the first place! LOL So I left and now I feel like Im part of the solution to big government spending rather than trying to get the republicans to adhere to their founding principles (and those of the country) when they get elected.
Oh and Call me Arin
I agree, it is only a matter of time. I consider myself to be a person of deep faith. I also feel things coming to a head. I'm uncertain of whether or not they are the actual biblical end-times, as I had always imagined that there would be far less cognizance of religious prophecy even than in the world today. There are so many specific signs in Revelation that must come to pass, that could be avoided if people of influence were aware of them. Take the mark of the beast, for example. How could anyone who has ever read Revelation not associate a mark that would be placed on the left hand or the forehead as a sign? However, I am seeing things come to pass that are making this feasible. I see the rising wave in the identity theft, and I see the FDA approving ID chip implants. As someone who works in the field of data security, I can tell you that the security protocols are not good enough for successful implementation…yet. The perfection of quantum encryption is being worked on as we type. The advent of this recently developed technology brings the realization of the end times a little more feasible, than during other times in history that predictions have been made.
In regards to Spiritual Gifts, I accept the possibility and probability that there are those that have such gifts, and I think that it coincides with prophecy as well. I would be interested in hearing the story of your experiences with the Word of Knowledge. I found the Wikipedia article that you mentioned, and I will continue to analyze it, as I find it to be deeply interesting.
What do I honestly think of President Obama? I think that he is very charismatic, and I believe that he has the good intention of changing the country for the better, but I also think that he is naive and out-of touch with reality, in his stances on various issues (as many leftists are), and lacks the experience to handle the daunting challenges that his administration needs to address in the coming years. I don't believe that he is an evil man, or intends to do America harm, but I am concerned that he will inadvertently cause harm by way of his chosen policies, possibly to an irrepairable degree. One thing about President Obama that I couldn't care less about is his race. Don't get me wrong, the election of America's first African-American is a very noteworthy event. However, aside from a few unwanted, fringe, screw-loose, racist groups that choose to associate themselves with the right, I am convinced that the left places far more unhealthy emphasis on race than the right does.
The color of one's skin or their heritage has no bearing on whether or not I like them. If I said something that gave you the impression that I dislike black people, I would be interested to know what it was, as this was not my intent at all. I believe that the Antichrist is going to be a very real part of the sequence of end-time events, but I am not prepared to identify President Obama as the antichrist, although I have compared him to the biblical description of the Antichrist, just as I have Ex-President Bush, and various other people of influence. Please don't think that I am calling you a liar, or trying to make light of your gift. I simply don't have enough evidence to discern whether the Antichrist walks among us, or to his/her identity. I am also not prepared to condemn Muslims as the followers of the Antichrist, although I am certain that the religious fundamentalists that carry out violence in the name of God have had their faith twisted and corrupted by Satan. I would be highly interested in hearing about the research that you have done to reach these conclusions. I promise not to be offended.
You're not bugging me at all, so don't be concerned with that. I tried googling "Obama's new world order", but I only got 1 option on the right side (The sponsored links listing, correct?), and it's entitled "The Obama Deception". I'm not sure if the one that you mentioned has been removed, or if it's because I ran the google query while at work (We have automatic SafeSearch filtering there), but I'll keep looking for it and try googling it when I get home this afternoon. Please let me know if you find any other links to it.