Binghamton victims died seeking better lives
Posted by the912project on April 6, 2009 · 120 Comments
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120 Responses to “Binghamton victims died seeking better lives”The Restoring Honor Rally August 28, 2010
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Instead of some dumb thug getting away with money, probably to quickly aprehended, now there is one guy dead and another seriously wounded. Lucky thing no bystanders got caught in the crossfire.
See, you missed the point. Oh no you didn't. Just like every other Left wing anti GUN NUT. You tried to dodge. You asked for ONE occurrence and I give it to you. So you dodge and dance. I thought that you would be "reasonable" and be Honest. But alas, just like all the the others, another lefty who won't play by the rules. By the way, the PERP in this was wanted for 2 prior shootings as well as several other hold-ups. Had been for a while it seems. And just so you know, the wounded person, they did the right thing in Florida law. Jeez it's nice to have friends who are still "Donut Eaters"
9-12er, 3%er, Oath Keeper, Vet and Ex-Cop
Μολὼν λαβέ (Come and Take Them!)
It is a very sad reality that we have lost so many children to this horrific procedure. Where would we be today if they had lived.
<DIV>I think we would be closer to God and our moral past!
When the bleeding hearts start using this, or any other incident for that matter, as an example FOR gun control, counter it with "Then we should ban baseball bats, and baseballs, screwdrivers, steak knives, forks, scissors, rolling pins, automobiles, airplanes, electricity, step ladders, high heeled shoes, frying pans, glass products of any kind, bath tubs, any thing weighing over 25 lbs., any thing made of metal, panty hose (what?! it kills me to have to wear them on a steamy hot Texas day!), . . . is it necessary for me to go on? My point, ANYTHING CAN BE USED AS A WEAPON TO INFLICT FATAL WOULDS. We don't live in a bubble where we are immune to attack. We live in a world full of evil people that will use their bare hands to kill IF they are hell bent on killing. It makes just about as much sense to ban guns as it does to ban any of the other gazillion items that COULD be used to injure another human being. It's been said before but bears being said again, 'People kill people, not guns!""
I was watching Beck tonight and was unknowing (uh, because I work!) that the MSM was putting this once again on the Conservatives with all their bigotry (sarc).
I am upset. It's Alinsky Rules. PLEASE you guys. Game is on. They will demonize then maginalize. It's so scary. Stand together and be strong and AWARE and courageous. God only knows what's next. Don't ever forget we are the majority, just the silent one and they're gaming up for us. I see the end of our Nation as we know and love it.
My heart is broken and torn out for the loss of life in this murderers wake. The stories seem to keep coming and coming… BUT this CUTS TO THE HEART OF FREEDOM! God bless those that honorably stood in line, waited for letters, and were passing through the legal gateway of citizenship, longing to be free under the blessed UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
"Send me you're tired, your weary, longing to be free…"
Do not forget that we are an island, a fortress, a city of light in a darkening world. Let a memorial for those who lost their lives just short of the finishline stand on that site as a reminder that we are a good people who will TREASURE, PROTECT, and DEFEND our liberty and freedom.
A pissed off mama bear is a force no man wishes to reckon with. Now to do something about "if I had a gun…" My wife has recently realized the duties that she carries (daily) to protect our 3 young children, she took professional handgun training with several co-workers. I'm not ashamed to say it; she outshot me last trip to the range. She is now at least prepared for the unknown, instead of the unknown just happening around her. Her sexy little custom Walther PPK/S .380 doesn't say a word as it sleeps in that black holster riding under whatever she's wearing that day.
I totally agree. But, one must be a citizen first. Then the "cold dead hands" apply.
I don't carry a gun to make me feel like a man.
I carry a gun because men know how to take care of themselves and the ones they love.
I don't carry a gun because I feel inadequate.
I carry a gun because unarmed and facing three armed thugs, I am inadequate.
I don't carry a gun because I love it.
I carry a gun because I love life and the people who make it meaningful to me.
'Police Protection' is an oxymoron.
Free citizens must protect themselves.
Police do not protect you from crime, they usually just investigate the crime after it happens and then call someone in to clean up the mess.
Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take an [butt] kickin'.
I don't carry a gun. I don't even own a gun, and I am alive as you are. I plan to stay that way for a very long time. I don't need a gun to do it. Given the way I conduct my life, I am about as likely to get hit by lightening as I am to be killed by a gunman. It is nothing I worry about.
Centerleft, I REALLY feel bad for you, living in that little bubble that protects you from all harm. I bet you have never even got to ride a bike or play baseball, you've never been able to go out in public, why I bet you don't even have the luxury of electrical appliances in your house. You see, "Given the way you conduct your life" is such a naive statement. Just because you conduct yourself in a certain manner does not protect you from the dangers of this world. Girl, you need to WAKE UP! There may come a day when your little boy is in a position, out here in the REAL, ugly, world, that you will have to make a hard decision in order to protect him. Do you want him hoping that the closet he's hiding in won't turn into his death trap or be a licensed, responsible, gun owner that is able to defend himself and those around him. We all need to 'hope' we never have to be in such a position, but the hard cold reality of it is we are more likely to find ourselves facing a crazed maniac that is shooting at us than we are to get struck by lightening, regardless of "How we conduct our lives." Bad Guy's DO NOT CARE how we conduct our lives unless we are going to pull out our hand guns and stop them in their tracks. Then they MIGHT care a little.
I don't carry a gun because I hate the government.
I carry a gun because I understand the limitations of government.
I don't carry a gun because I'm angry.
I carry a gun so that I don't have to spend the rest of my life hating myself for failing to be prepared.
I don't carry a gun because I want to shoot someone.
I carry a gun because I want to die at a ripe old age in my bed, and not on a sidewalk somewhere tomorrow afternoon.
I don't carry a gun because I'm a cowboy.
I carry a gun because, when I die and go to heaven, I want to be a cowboy.
I don't carry a gun to kill people.
I carry a gun to keep from being killed.
I don't carry a gun to scare people.
I carry a gun because sometimes this world can be a scary place.
I don't carry a gun because I'm paranoid.
I carry a gun because there are real threats in the world.
I don't carry a gun because I'm evil.
I carry a gun because I have lived long enough to see the evil in the world.
Hey LEFTY, here's your SIGN!
News link
Text of the article:
1 dead, one injured in Miami Burger King shooting
By ROBERT SAMUELS AND JENNIFER LEBOVICH
One man was killed and another seriously wounded in a shootout inside a Miami Burger King on Tuesday, officials said.
Police said a man wearing a ski mask walked into the store at Biscayne Boulevard and 54th Street and demanded money from a clerk.
A customer, who has a concealed weapons permit, pulled a gun, said Officer Jeff Giordano, a Miami police spokesman.
The customer and robber exchanged fire.
The robber was shot dead at the scene.
The customer, who had several gunshot wounds, was taken to Ryder Trauma Center in serious but stable condition, said Lt. Ignatius Carroll, a Miami Fire Rescue spokesman.
9-12er, 3%er, Oath Keeper, Vet and Ex-Cop
Μολὼν λαβέ (Come and Take Them!
This is not a gun/no gun issue. This is a crazy man who should have never been given air time.
I do think it would be fitting to proclaim posthumously that each of these victims be granted citizenship (those that were seeking it).
I agree, much like those who are in the service of our country as well. If they are in the service and complete their active duty portion or are killed and/or wounded, they have earned it.
9-12er, 3%er, Oath Keeper, Vet and Ex-Cop
Μολὼν λαβέ (Come and Take Them!
or were you , naw I'll let that one go.
9-12er, 3%er, Oath Keeper, Vet and Ex-Cop
Μολὼν λαβέ (Come and Take Them!
JTunink, FYI, I promise I was not, do not ,and will never infer that ALL peace officers are anything like my first description. Nor do I believe that anything but a tiny minority even come close to that description. Sadly, however, I do know a couple that accurately fit that description. I was merely trying to make a point that there are officers that are less desirable in such a situation, to me, than a well trained and highly motivated, licensed, citizen. You, and all others, that have served and sacrificed to protect the American public deserve, and have, my deepest gratitude and are held in highest regard.
Thanks, but the one to truly thank are those who still serve. My family has a long tradition of serving the Country that still carries on today. God gave us the US and we deem it necessary to protect it. Oh, and No Offense taken, I promise my wife calls me worse. 8-P
9-12er, 3%er, Oath Keeper, Vet and Ex-Cop
Μολὼν λαβέ (Come and Take Them!
This is more then a gun control issue. This is a statement of values, or lack of.
Another horrid example of the policy of creating "gun free victim zones".
I am not backpeddeling, I am clarifying.
Sadly, handgun accidents are so common place they are not big stories. I haven't got time to comb the internet to find out which of the thousands of gun accidents was cause by someone with a concealled weapon's permit and which was just some drunk hunter.
You, sir, have an empty argument. lacking in both logic and facts. You should quit while you're behind. You can feel what you want to feel. I don't believe in thought police or trying to take away your right to your opinions or to voice them. However, you would be wise to state them as opinions and not fact when trying to debate with people who happen to be educated on a particular subject. You're pulling statements out of thin air and have no facts with which to back them up. You are invalidating other people's statements based on nothing, and backpedaling and making jokes when confronted about it. Boring. Time to move on.
FWIW, I am a ma'am, not a sir.
I was mentioning this conversation to a friend and she immediately pointed me to this story:
<a href=”http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2…” target=”_blank”>http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2…
<a href=”http://seattle.gov/news/detail.asp?ID=8532&De…” target=”_blank”>http://seattle.gov/news/detail.asp?ID=8532&De…
I would sue him and the city to the point of Bankruptcy for violating the 2nd Amendment. That Bill of Rights that he so blatantly Steps on would cost him his job. He's a Mayor and therefore subject to the Laws of the Land i.e. he's refusal to allow law abiding citizens to protect themselves only shows how little he values human life. Oh but that's in Seattle. Still sue, Heller was won in D.C.
9-12er, 3%er, Oath Keeper, Vet and Ex-Cop
Μολὼν λαβέ (Come and Take Them!
Now would be a great time for the "leftofcenter" types to band together. They need a logo for their new organization so all the members can proudly display it at your home and even on your car, sort of like an ADT security sign. That way everyone will recognize your home or car is gun free. Hold meetings once a month with your members to discuss and strategize how you can "play possum" or "hide" in case of a violent attack. You too can have your own "safe zone".
Unfortunately I cannot participate…… my local gov. has ordinances against signs in my yard.
Thank you I needed a laugh.
When my son was smaller, I lived in a small rural community of less than 1,000 people. There were a lot of sportsmen in the community, and a fair number of gun nuts. Before I let my son play at anyone's house, I made sure that if they had guns they were locked up. I didn't allow guns to come into my house (not even BB guns) or vehicles with guns in them parked in my yard. I sure that the whole community knew I didn't own a gun. I never had a bit of trouble.
I'm glad you never had any problems….. but you're making my point! The people you didn't have to fear were the people in your neighborhood that you labeled as "sprotsmen" and "gun nuts". Perhaps those that would have done you harm in a robbery or attack didn't know if you were a "gun nut" or not. If you don't see my point you should have no problem posting a sign for everyone to see not just your "gun nut" neighbors.
if anyone wants to know time line and victims story's please see http://www.pressconnects.com
This guy was an animal. Guns or no guns he would have killed . We should say a prayer for the victims and families. We should not have a back lash against people that want to be here legally. We need to be alert to the left using the victims as a way to take away liberty. The nuts will always figure a way.
Sad on so many levels. He killed those who would have improved our nation.
Sadly . .the press will label him right wing . .a gun clinger . . a neo con racist . . they will say see . . that's why THEY should not have guns . . .
He was just an animal. A sick and demented human being. It is a shame no one will write stories that actually look for what is hard wired wrong in these people.
I find it amazing how many politicians are against guns. My son who is a trooper,was in the protection division covering the Gov., lieutenant governor and their families. Liberal Hollywood who wants to do away with the 2nd amendment, has plenty of security. It seems like Washington is covered in security. Evidently American private citizens are the only ones that aren't supposed to have security. We, apparently, are less important and need no security in our homes for our children. It is no longer "We The People", It is big government. God Help Us.
Should you have to pass a test before you can vote? How about before you get a fair trial? Or hey about before you can speak or gather with friends? Or hey, do you need a special permit to be secure in your posessions?
Apparently you fail to realize that there exists an Individual R-I-G-H-T to keep and bear arms.
A supreme court Justice once said that the right to free speech does not give you the right to yell "Fire" in a crowded theatre. In other words, free speech can not be used in a way that would make a safety issue. It is the same with second amendment rights. People have the right to bear arms, but the government can pass laws to make sure the ownership and use of guns is done in such a way that insures the public safety.
The government already requires training prior to permitting you to carry a handgun. Do you think the government is going to provide you with a guardian angel when someone starts shooting people all around you?
Yeah, how did that whole "stand down" thing work on 9-11? What took place on Flight 93? Oh yeah, passengers stood up to their attackers and saved untold numbers of lives doing so. But you would have told them to stand down and play possum too huh? Shame on you for Forgetting!!!
I see a whole lot of left and zEro center.
My most heartfelt prayers go out to the victims families.
As far as the gun "control" issue, if a gun was fully loaded and set in the middle of a field, alone, it will not sprout legs and hatred then walk to the nearest town and start killing people. Weapons can only be deadly when in the hands of a lunatic, whether they be a knife, candelstick, rope ,wrench, lead pipe or a revolver.
Well I have thought a lot about this being I am from the Binghamton area, so call me crazy but if I had a gun and someone came into my place of work shooting, I would be scared at first but i would get up the courage and I would return fire. Please believe me I am no fool if the shooter is standing in a crowd I would try to buy my time till he was a clear shot, but i would do it.!!!! Iam a mother of 2 and I feel strong about protecting myself and others.
someone wrote about medications… This is true a lot of dr.'s are just writing scrips for anything and people are taking them like candy…. Lets just sum it up to their are a lot of wacko's in this world and always will be that will never change. If the world went and got rid of guns then wacko's would find something else to use ;so its not guns its the people………….its like me blaming the computer and my pen for all my typo's and miss spellings .. At least we have a right to protect ourself and that is what I plan on doing…..
That was an aweful thing to say. I can tell by your mean-spirited language and your constant reference to our law enforcement as "donut-eaters" that you have some maturity issues. You have a right to your opinions, but I feel sorry for you as you have some growing up to do.
I only called the cops "donut eaters" when I was replying to a post who sarcastically called the cops "donuts eaters". I was just mirroring back his reference.
You may think I am immature (and you may be right), but I think you are a bit humor challenged. However, I standby the serious point that I was trying to make humorously. You shouldn't take everything an instructor (of anything) tells you at face value. Part of an instructor's job is to pump you up and give you self-confidence so that you absorb the material being taught better.
Of course the firearms instructor is going to tell his class how important they are to the public safety. He will get a lot more cooperation by being complementary to his students than if he is indifferent or insulting to them.
You're incorrect. This guy volunteers to do this, as an extension service of the local police department (that is who actually collects money for the classes) because he believes in it. He also devotes his own time to talking about self-defense in such places as the local senior center. It's where his heart is. Sorry you are incapable of understanding that some people take a stand and put their actions where their words are and actually believe in something.
I was NOT inferring that ALL cops fit my earlier description. I was suggesting that there are officers of the law that are out of shape and inept at their job. I was suggesting that the officer that first responds COULD possibly be a REALLY BAD shot that hasn't qualified at the range for years. (Too busy taking coffee breaks with do-nuts!) Some of my closest and dearest friends are cops and I have the utmost respect for ALL cops, regardless of their snack preferences. I just don't want some of them responsible for my chances of survival!
I'm sorry, but once again your ignorance is showing. The Supreme Court ruled that police have no obligation to protect you. Your jurisdiction, wherever it is, does not trump that.
Show me ONE incident where a concealed carry permit holder accidentally shot somebody standing next to him.
Show me one incident when a concealed carry permit holder was helpful in one of these mass shootings we have had.
I know what the Supreme Court said. However, in my town it is police policy to protect citizens. Local jurisdictions can not institute policies that conflict with supreme court rulings, but they can definitely go above and beyond minimum requirements set by the court. Law enforcement officiers die every day protecting the lives and property of people in this country.
You fail. You cannot show one incident where a concealed carry permit holder has shot the guy standing next to him on accident. That would be something that made news and was of public record. Your straw man response is moot since these incidents always take place in so-called gun free zones, where the law abiding follow the rules and the mass murderers do not. My point is to eliminate the victim disarmament zones. Your arguments are empty.
You're backpedaling on your law enforcement statement. No surprise.
Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Should we outlaw cars and airplanes because they "kill" people too? Some people will never get it. I would rather not see people having to arm themselves but with all the criminals having guns we have to do something to protect ourselves. When the government starts trying to put to many gun laws into place the only ones not affected are the criminals. They will never give up their guns.
"The love of many will wax cold". We read that in the Bible and we wonder what it could mean. I believe we are seeing this happen in our day and time right now. The events that took place on Friday with the killing of these innocent people reminded me of what took place almost two years ago this month with the massacre at Virginia Tech. I worked in that area of Blacksburg, VA and I can identify with the feelings of wanting to do something for these people but unable to do anything but keep them in prayer as they deal with this senseless loss. My prayers do go out to these families that have been affected, but it also reminds me that we are living in a society that has no compassion for the sanctity of human life. Day after day we hear of these things happening and we just keep on rolling along. In a society where abortion is legal, saving a whale is imperative, making sure that we recycle every piece of trash, turn down our thermostats and drive vehicles that don't pollute, what more can we expect when it comes to the blessing of life that the Lord of Heaven has given to us.
Had'nt thought of it quite that way but I suppose we have put the most important parts of life behind us. I think the sanctitiy of human life has been forgotten for awhile, not just abortion but late term abortion and killing of the infant If the baby actually lives through this horrific procedure. We will one day have to answer for our neglect of the most precious gift we are given!
LOL the instructor was just sucking up to you.
Once again your statements lack logic.
I am not afraid of guns. I am afraid of people who use guns. I have grown up around plenty of hunters and sports shooters. Some of them are well-trained and responsible, but plenty of them are dangerous yahoos.
How many people do you know who got injured in a hunting accident? I can name a bunch. These hunting accidents occur in the vast expanse of the outdoors. I can just imagine how many accidents there would be if people started shooting their guns around inside in a closely confined space in a chaotic situation. No ma'am, I don't feel one iota better knowing that there are people walking around with concealed weapons ready to protect me.
FWIW, my brother is a police firearms instructor, he doesn't share the view of your police officier friends.
Then we see things differently and we will just leave it at that.
At the end of the day, I still have the right and responsibility to arm myself, and this is a privelege I do not take lightly.
Wishing you a safe journey, LL
Again, I take issue with being stereotyped as a freaked out yahoo.
We have taken the training, we hold a high respect for fire arms, we have commited our time and money to taking training courses that are taught by our local police officers. Our police officers feel better with armed citizens, I know because they have told me so. We are a support them in their jobs.
Honestly, you have an unrealistic fear of guns. Those of us who have grown up hunting and on the shooting course have respect, responsibility and common sense with our guns.
If you were sitting right next to me, it wouldn't be possible for me to hit you. You aren't making any sense, which doesn't surprise me. You do know that the police have no obligation whatsoever to protect you, right? You do know that they did not enter this building until 45 minutes after the shooting began and after the shooter was already dead, right? Police come in to clean up the aftermath. That is their job. I, however, have every right to protect myself. It's my duty, in fact, as a responsible citizen. There is no reason to try to legally disarm ME and not be able to do a thing about disarming murderous fools.
I guess my suggestion to you is that you stick to only businesses which have made themselves victim disarmament zones, with a sign on their door. I will do the opposite. That way, you will have no worries about stray bullets from trained, skilled citizens and only have to worry about mass murdering fools. Deal?
Oh c'mon people using firearms accidentially shoot themselves or people right next to themselves all the time.
In the jurisdiction where I live, cops absolutely have an obligation to protect citizens. It may not be true everywhere.
I am in considerably more danger driving to a business, than I am getting shot up in the business by either a mad gunman or a would-be hero. I don't worry about unlikely events that I can't control like getting shot. I am just stating my opinion that I think America is less safe because of all the people walking around with guns, not more safe.
I am not advocating taking away anybody's guns. I am just saying that I feel less safe because of all the guns in this country.
With respect, I completely disagree with you.
Those of us who have Concealed Carry permits have taken the proper courses to handle our guns responsibly. You should have every confidence in our abilities as you to the law enforcement. I would take a gun-toting law-abiding citizen by my side any day.
Which is exactly how most police officers feel about it. The officer who taught my training class feels that armed citizens are essentially his back-up out there, and the more the better as far as he was concerned. The many officers we are personally acquainted with feel the same way. They are thrilled to see more and more people getting their permits.
This is very sad. These people were trying to immigrate LEGALLY.
Too bad that's rare these days…
Why follow the rules when one can just "hop the fence" and get freeeeee stuff like 'bailouts'?
These senseless acts of violence always bothers me to my core. My heartfelt sympathies for all.
The shooter had an deranged mind! His intent was to kill! his weapon of choice makes no difference.
The alternative is you die!
…or not. In these horrible situations, usually many people survive by finding a place to hide or playing possum.
I agree the media and politicians are going to turn it into a gun controll issue, because they want to be popular with the people and they want the next vote. That is why I watch fox and glenn beck!!! I just wish people would not turn it into a gun controll issue.. I all ready have had a "dissagreement" with a co-worker of mine who is for gun conrtoll, and its only 10:29 am. Also I know a person who is good friends with the guy who sold the wacko the guns at gander mt.. (j.c NY) and it was not his fault what happened, but the media has made him out to be wrong as well.. The employee at gander mt. did his job that the state and fed. laws apply. … yes this is a terrible thing that happened but no one is to blame but the wacko himself…… BUT the all time question that people are asking here is if someone had a gun for protection in that building and they were allowed to carry such a weapon could this have been stopped before to much damage had been done??????? please let us know your answer…..what do you think???
We need to find out what psych drugs the shooter was on. I virtually every case of this type, the perpetrator was on psych mind-altering drugs. The first case I read of was that of Laurie Dann in Winnetka, IL. She went into a classroom and blasted away at the students, killing some of them.. Then she went home and shot herself. It was reported that she was ubder the care or a psych and on Lithium. Then there was the loving mother in Texas who drowned her five kids. She was on a tranquilizer. There was my friend John Hood here in Tampa who took a shotgun and blew his brains out. He was on lithium prescribed by a psych. And there was Joseph Wesbecker who shot up his place of work. He was on a psych drug. I could go on and on.
When I worked at a company in Texas, a lady next to me told me that two of her friends started taking a psych drug. They developed feelings of intense hatred for everyone. Recognizing the source of thier feelings, they got off the drugs immediately.
Since the Laurie Dann affair, the media no longer reports the fact that the perps were on psych drugs. Bad for business!
What should be outlawed is not guns, but psych drugs!
We need to find out what psych drugs the shooter was on. I virtually every case of this type, the perpetrator was on psych mind-altering drugs. The first case I read of was that of Laurie Dann in Winnetka, IL. She went into a classroom and blasted away at the students, killing some of them.. Then she went home and shot herself. It was reported that she was ubder the care or a pstch and on Lithium. Then there was the loving mother in Texas who drowned her five kids. She was on a tranquilizer. There was my friend John Hood here in Tampa who took a shotgun and blew his brains out. He was on lithium prescribed by a psych. And there was Joseph Wesbecker who shot up his place of work. He was on a psych drug. I could go on and on.
When I worked at a company in Texas, a lady next to me told me that two of her friends started taking a psych drug. They developed feelings of intense hatred for everyone. Recognizing the source of thier feelings, they got off the drugs immediately.
Since the Laurie Dann affair, the media no longer reports the fact that the perps were on psych drugs. Bad for business!
What should be outlawed is not guns, but psych drugs!
I feel for the victims and their families in this senseless shooting(not that any shooting makes sense).They were people trying to better themselves and going through the proper channels of becoming US citizens,then something like this happens,go figure.
The sad thing is the gun control organizations will try and use this as an example that guns need to be controlled and eventually banned.The main thing that these crazy people don't get is that the ones who have no reguard for human life will always find a way to get a gun of some sort illegally and continue this sort of senseless violence.
Sorry, the Binghamton victims died because of New York State's unconstitutional victim disarmament, aka gun control, laws. The center had no security. People rely on the "police" that are merely paper pushers. One concealed carry permit in that crowd and we would have a vastly different story. It works. Sprinkle a few "sheepdogs" in among the sheep and everyone is protected. Sorry, but it's a fact of life. You have to protect yourself and your loved ones. Ignoring the security problem doesn't make it go away. Even if the police were perfect; they can't be there when the problems occur. Only a well armed citizenry can be the "police". Take any of these mass murders and do a mental experiment. If we have, even under these draconian laws, 130 million guns in a population of 300 million, lets ASSUME that 10% of the populace chooses to arm themselves. That means that in the 14 dead, there would be one armed defender. And, in the 30 or so people in the center, there might be three armed defenders. I'm happy to give my fellow Americans — citizen or not — their right to defend their own lives. Just as I would want the same right. Glenn has a long way to go before he's a "libertarian". First, he has to put the blame squarely on the gooferment for setting up the conditions for this disaster, and so many others! imho!
You assume that all these gun-toting, would be heros can shoot straight in the high stress situation of a crazy gunman opening fire on a crowd. That would not be my assumption. I feel I would be in as much danger from a stray bullet from a bystander. as I would be from the crazy shooter himself.
I would take that chance. As far as I can tell the mad man who did this had no formal training. What if your wife/husband/child was in that center? You are trapped and cannot escape. Would you blithely accept certain death by the hands of a psycho or choose salvation because one of the victims was armed. Remember, nobody needs a gun, until you need one BADLY!
That is why a responsible gun owner knows the weapons that he or she own, and spends time shooting that weapon to become proficiant with it.
It is the most irrisponsible thing to have a weapon and not understand it and not know how to use it.
Would you have a $1000.00 Computer to sit in the closet and never get used?
You BET I could! Are you telling me that if you were one of the people in that building, you would have felt LESS safe if I pulled out my gun? That doesn't make any sense at all.
I agree that everyone can not be allowed to carry a gun. But with the proper training and required qualifications some people would be an asset in most of the situations that are happening all to often. There are a lot of people walking around that are fully qualified to protecct themselves and others, men and women that have training using a weapon during times of stress. There would be no difference between a civilian that has attended proper training and a police officer. Many state laws are to extreme, I have recieved training from the military (MP and Terrorist Threat), civilian police (Patrol Sgt), Nuclear Power Plant weapons trainer and a qualified weapons trainer in the state of Wisconsin yet I can not carry a gun in this state.
Yup centerleft, your feelings matter more than constitutionally recognized rights huh? I guess you assume gun owners cannot shoot straight. Maybe that comes from being disassociated from guns just the way liberals want? You see, a great many gun owners shoot more (as in practice more) than many police officers do.
In your comment you compare the good guy to the bad guy and establish them as peers. Nothing can be further from the truth.
Centerleft, I respectfully submit you should educate yourself before you make further comment. All of these "gun-toting, would be heros" have to pass a timed, proficiency test in order to obtain their permit to carry a concealed hand gun! They are taught the proper handling of their weapon and the proper time to pull it and use it! If I was in this situation and was faced with a crazed individual that was intent on doing fatal harm to as many people as possible, you bet I would want a trained "gun-toting" citizen close by. Better than standing there taking my chances that some "gun-toting", blubber bearing, do-nut eating cop MIGHT show up in time and MIGHT not mistake me for one of the bad guys! A co-worker that was permitted to carry a concealed weapon would know who to shoot and when to take his/her best shot, once he/she had determined that was the last resort to save innocent lives. Better wounded by friendly fire than murdered in cold blood by a maniac!
Your assumption is that the crazy gun man CAN shoot straight…. I think it may be tough to take aim when you see 5 people in front of you swipe their shirt away and draw down on your center mass. +1 for the good guys.
You liberal hacks don't understand that the reason these guys choose places like this, is because they assume everyone is helpless to defend. The WHOLE FREEKIN POINT OF BEING AN ARMED SOCIETY is so that the BAD GUYS THINK TWICE BEFORE WALKING IN AND SHOOTING!!!!
Works with Nukes don't it? It's the universal law of self preservation. Those breaking the law of self preservation should be found alone in a closet, not alongside UNARMED, MURDERED, citizens in PUBLIC!!!
I must disagree with you when you state "police" are "merely paper pushers", the problem is that the police are reactive and due to budgets, and laws will remain that way. I know that even in our city when the officers go on shift they are almost always five or six calls behind. They spend the shifts just keeping up with calls. I do agree that each of us must be ready to protect ourselves and our property, the police can not be there prior to the violence we face. The goverment must take steps to allow law abiding citizens to arm themselves so they can protect themselves from a gunman that knows he or she is the only person that is armed and faces no threat.
Regarding the shooting in Binghamton:
Never in the history of this facility (Opened in 1939) has there been any reason to have a full time armed gaurd on duty. Only during large "festivals" there was a gaurd hired to be there.
I used to live in the Binghamton area. This was always considered a very safe place for people to gather.
Gun control laws or not, there was only one way to stop this from happening…
Reports are that the shooter repeatedly visited the same store to purchase weapons and ammo (legally). He was agitated with the loss of his job and the fact that he could not communicate well. The warning signs were there, but once again they were ignored and now innocent people are dead.
Want to stop this? I have offered my help, but I get ignored too.
100% my brother. From the time my wet feet hit the floor after a shower, to the time they crawl into bed at night… My .40 S&W is on my side.
I Don't know who the wise man was who wrote this, but I'm pretty sure it sums up what every responsible, self controlling, self protectin', "sheepdog" out there feels.
———————————————————————–
I do live in the Binghamton area. This is such a horrible, thing that has happened. This community never thought this would have happened here.. Let me just say that since B.U. went to division 1 this area has had a lot of crime. Please understand that when I say "a lot of crime" I mean more than what we had, but not like places such as N.Y.C, L.A, Charlotte, Atlanta ect…. This is still considered a safe small city / large town. PLEASE DO NOT TURN THIS INTO A GUN CONTROLL ISSUE….. I am clinging to my god and my guns. Guns do not kill people people kill people… This guy was just a wacko…. I believe that the binghamton pd, state police emts, and hospitals ect.. did a good job handeling this situation.. I feel very , very strongley about illegal aliens, but I will not get into that right now. I do feel so bad about these people trying to do the "legal" thing. I hope this has not detured others from becoming LEGAL citizens of the USA.
With all do respect, it has already been turned into a "Gun Control" issue by the media as has the Pittsburg shooting.
What happened to these people is terrible. A group of people trying to find a better life, wanting to become part of this country, and someone hell bent on going out in a blaze of glory shows up out of the blue. No warning. They did not ask for this, but it happened. What does the media and the Politicians do? They turn it into an excuse to call for more restrictive gun control laws. These call must be countered with reason and common sense and that should not be seen as marginalizing this tragic incident.
The only thing I can think of being worse than a mad man randomly shooting at people is a mad man randomly shooting at people and a bunch of freaked out yahoos randomly shooting back. If I somehow manage to escape the mad man by playing dead or something, then I could end up being collateraly damage to some Bruce Willis wannabe who can't shoot straight.
This is America! People buy all kinds of things they don't need and don't know how to use just for the heck of it. My dad has a top of the line computer that he uses to play solitaire on.
Sadly, second amendment rights are not limited to responsible gun owners. The irresponsible ones get them too. What I envision happening if five people pull their guns at the same time to kill a mad gunman is that no one knows who is with the gunman and who is not. I see people making bad judgments and killing the wrong people, not to speak of innocent people killed in the crossfire.
So you are advocating that the people should meekly accept their fate and hope for the best? What exactly is your argument? You are now President. What would you do to prevent this from happening.
If you are sitting right next to me and you shoot and miss, then I am a bigger target than before. Shootouts often do not end well fro innocent bystanders. I rather leave it to the cops.
Yeah, people carrying concealed weapons have to ass some test either performed or sactioned by the government. As I am told over and over again at this site, the government can't do anything right. Why should I trust that the guys who run the gun tests are any more compenent than the guys who do the drivers tests. Sorry. I will take my chance with the donuting eating cops.
You see, Centerleft, it's that donut eating cop (the one that we both hold with such respect) that is teaching the concealed carry courses.
If you trust the judgement of local law enforcement, you should be open to the possibility to trust a law abiding citizen. If you cannot trust the donut-eater, then I cannot contribute any more to this conversation and we will choose to disagree.
I know I trust myself and my neighbor who upholds the laws. I know I have a right to protect myself and my family.
I agree that nothing will stop all nuts from shooting up a place. What I would ask though is who will pay for these off-duty officers? I have never asked one what they make, but I am quite positive it isn't minimum wage. A grocery store can handle that expense because they are for-profit. This was a non-profit place so their budget is severely limited.
There are no easy answers to this problem, but strict gun control isn't one of them. Gun control has never worked in the history of man. The last place it was tried (Australia) crime increased everywhere. In Victoria armed robbery increased by 200%. People will always find a way to cause harm to a person they disagree with.
Please list the "often" happenings. OK, you would rather leave "it" to PEOPLE WITH GUNS ( aka police). I can respect your choice. but what makes you think you get to make that decision for me and everyone else and why don't you respect our choice?
Like the cops that shot down a homeowner because he answered the door with his gun on??? Only problem was that the cops had the wrong place. Or maybe the cop that disarmed the badguy, then cuffed him and put him over the trunk of the patrol car…. THEN fumbled the gun and accidentally shot the now unarmed and arrested perp….. Or maybe the cops that are STANDING OUTSIDE for 45 minutes while you're bleeding to death…. waiting on the SWAT team. Next time the SWAT team will be waiting for the national guard, and the guard will be there waiting on a commander to let them know when to take a crap.
WAKE UP MAN… Its the Boots on the dirt, it's the people in the mix, it's the front line. That’s us. Not the cops.
Answer this question and see who’s on the side of the people…. Can you sue the police dept. for damages if a criminal slices you trying to take the $20 you just got from the ATM. (Case law resounds NO!) So they are NOT responsible or EXPECTED to protect you… why? Because you are granted the right, privilege, and opportunity to do so for yourself. By the Constitution of the United States
I can see that you don't understand a gun battle. There will be a lot of rounds fired in a few seconds and you never stand in one place in a gun battle. It is not like the movies.
If I was sitting right next to you I wouldn't miss! But, unless you were the bad guy, I wouldn't be shooting at you either. I don't carry a shotgun, so there is little chance of you being "accidentally" hit. As I have trained and received my license to carry a concealed handgun, I make it a point to be proficient with it. I practice at least 3 hours per week. Granted I live in a very rural area and don't have to leave my property to practice which makes it much easier for me than most but I would think everyone that has a permit makes it a point to practice as well. At least every one I know that has a permit does.
I would again like to suggest that you educate yourself on this topic. History has shown that when a government disarms it's citizens, the first thing that happens is violent crime goes UP, and not just a little up, DRAMATICALLY up. Just look south a little to Mexico. The law abiding citizens are not allowed to have fire arms. The drug lords and ne'er do wells are running amok and terrorizing those defenseless people, having shoot outs in the streets and the BAD GUYS are shooting the innocent by standers. The innocents don't stand a chance. If they could defend themselves with concealed firearms, they would at least have a fighting chance and that's way better, IMO, than standing by, or hiding under the bed, and living in constant fear.
Maybe if you did factor the Constitution into your position you would not so haphazardly defy it.
I think public places should be better secured. I work in a government building. Ever since 911 we have armed guards and IDs are required to get into most places in the building. Most grocery stores in my area have off-duty cops on duty. Schools have armed resource officiers.
Better securing public buildings will not prevent every nut with a gun from openning fire, but it will help.
I don't recall that I mentioned the constitution at all. I am sure that plenty of gun owners can shoot straight, and I am also sure that plenty can't, especially in a real situation as opposed to a simulated one on the gun range.
I do not consider the good guy and bad guy to be morally equivilent. However, I would be just as dead if I was killed accidently by friendly fire as I would by a mad gunman who wished me harm.
I think you are being purposely obtuse, and there's no honor in that. Why should anyone care what you think?
And he's not alone.
9-12er, 3%er, Oath Keeper, Vet and Ex-Cop
Μολὼν λαβέ (Come and Take Them!)
Ah, a government TROLL! Should have known. O.k. Troll, so you're going to huddle in the corner, crying and bemoaning how a "criminal" got a gun, as he and possibly his friends walk calmly through your work place, shooting each person, one by one. You'll curse the maker of the gun, the Constitution for allowing ANYONE to have it, Law Enforcement Officers because they'll take minutes to get there (oh, by the way, they won't play Bruce Willis and just charge in, they're not suicidal), but oh the idea of an individual, taking responsible action, and defending you? No we can't have that. You want, no You DEMAND, protection. Well guess what. The supreme Court has stated that you cannot expect protection by the Police. It has done so on several rulings. Their job is to clean up afterward and to collect evidence for trial. "To Protect and Serve" is a motto.
Oh as far as my descriptive above involving an individual walking through a place shooting each person one by one as they hid. It occurred in Texas, in a restaurant, as a woman (law abiding) hid under a table, shielded by her parents, had left her gun in her car to comply with the law. The same law that was ignored by the criminal. If you want, here is the link to the story.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/first100/1001...
and here is her testimony on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIeyn0-rdx4
So how many rounds would you like with your .45ACP and CCW? I keep 25.
9-12er, 3%er, Oath Keeper, Vet and Ex-Cop
Μολὼν λαβέ (Come and Take Them!
Look out People, we got a 9-11 "TRUFER" here!.
9-12er, 3%er, Oath Keeper, Vet and Ex-Cop
Μολὼν λαβέ (Come and Take Them!
haha… you've lost all credibility now…. time for a little CHANGE…..
Centerleft >>> Left Nut
Gun control has worked pretty well in Europe. It is very hard to get a hand gun in most countries in Europe and their handgun homicide (and suicide) rate is a tiny fraction of America's.
The claim that Australia's crime rate is tied to their gun buy back program has been debunked by Snopes. <a href=”http://www.snopes.com/crime/statistics/ausguns.as…” target=”_blank”>http://www.snopes.com/crime/statistics/ausguns.as… I am sure you don't buy the Snopes analysis. I am not married to it either, but since the only place I ever hear about the horrible Australian gun control experiment is on pro-gun sites, I am skeptical of the total accuracy of this POV. I would think if there were maruding bands of criminals shooting up Sydney, they would occationally mention it in the mainstream media.
The heart of the liberal coillision is blacks, hispanics, union workers, and latte liberals. Three out of four of those groups like their guns as much as anybody else. Gun control isn't going to go anywhere in America any time soon.
Gun control has worked pretty well in Europe. It is very hard to get a hand gun in most countries in Europe and their handgun homicide (and suicide) rate is a tiny fraction of America's.
The claim that Australia's crime rate is tied to their gun buy back program has been debunked by Snopes. http://www.snopes.com/crime/statistics/ausguns.as... I am sure you don't buy the Snopes analysis. I am not married to it either, but since the only place I ever hear about the horrible Australian gun control experiment is on pro-gun sites, I am skeptical of the total accuracy of this POV. I would think if there were maruding bands of criminals shooting up Sydney, they would occationally mention it in the mainstream media.
The heart of the liberal coillision is blacks, hispanics, union workers, and latte liberals. Three out of four of those groups like their guns as much as anybody else. Gun control isn't going to go anywhere in America any time soon.
Okay, this one guy LOVES the idea of well trained people walking around with guns. However, he is one guy. Who cares what he thinks? Besides you, that is.
Isn't it interesting that the moderator deleted my comment. I am not a conspiracy theorist, but when a site like this deletes a perfectly civil comment like the one I made, it does make me go "hmmmm". FWIW, I beleive that the terrorists hit the twin towers and the pentagon. They were going to hit the White House or perhaps congress with Flight 93. However, the Air Force shot Flight 93 down before they had the chance, which was a tragic, but perfectly appropriate response. To spare the families, the Pentagon let the public story be that Flight 93 crashed because the passengers succeeded at being heroes.
Lets, see how long this post lasts…..Glen. glen, glen what happened to your belief in free speech? There are conspiracy thereories all over this site far more vicious and incendiary than what I wrote.
LOL there are posts all over this site about Obama being the anti-christ and FEMA concentration camps, and the the the youth service program being a army to take away people guns, and you think that I am a nut. BTW show me a plane crash picture of Flight 93.
I don't know that anyone does care what I think. However, this is a site where I am encourged to express my opinion, so I am doing so.
I have not discussed gun control at all, per se. I have just expressed my opinion that a bunch of yahoos walking around with guns makes me feel more unsafe. Show me whare in the constitution it says that I have to like the idea of people walking around with loaded guns. Show me whare it says in the constitution that I am not allowed to consider gun nuts paranoid and creepy.
BTW, everyone who owns a gun is not a gun nut. People who carry guns around all the time like Linus with his security blankets are gun nuts, IMO.
I quote it for you from the bottom of each page you post on.
"* While we believe in the First Amendment, individuals posting to this website agree to maintain a civil tone in keeping with the 9 Principles and 12 Values on which the site is based. Moderators may choose to remove comments that do otherwise and/or restrict future posting."
9-12er, 3%er, Oath Keeper, Vet and Ex-Cop
Μολὼν λαβέ (Come and Take Them!
Did you go to a Government Center to pass a test 1st and get your license? How about your background check along with Finger prints? Can't forget your mental Medical history. You know we have to be sure you are stable! We wouldn't want you to be using your 1st Amendment Right without the proper testing. You might offend someone with your Free Speech there now.
Yes I know it is a bad thing to make fun of, but this is what you're asking Law abiding, many of them Trained, Citizens to go through. I'll respect your right to go unarmed if you'll respect my right to be armed. See I can be pro-choice on that. I'm easy to get along with, just like a Hornets Nest, don't poke a stick at it and we'll all be just fine.
9-12er, 3%er, Oath Keeper, Vet and Ex-Cop
Μολὼν λαβέ (Come and Take Them!
Hey now, I used to fit that description. I loved Strawberry filled from Krispy Kream. But I also enjoy plain Glazed. I am an Ex-Cop, and I promise you we got call many things worse than, "Donut Eaters". (BTW I have a bumper sticker on the back of my truck that says, "Bad Cop, NO DONUT".
9-12er, 3%er, Oath Keeper, Vet and Ex-Cop
Μολὼν λαβέ (Come and Take Them!
Hey now, I used to fit that description. I loved Strawberry filled from Krispy Kream. But I also enjoy plain Glazed. I am an Ex-Cop, and I promise you we got call many things worse than, "Donut Eaters". (BTW I have a bumper sticker on the back of my truck that says, "Bad Cop, NO DONUT".)
9-12er, 3%er, Oath Keeper, Vet and Ex-Cop
Μολὼν λαβέ (Come and Take Them!
I would be safer with one shooter and government issued angel than I would be with tow or more people shooting and the bullets flying all over the place.
What about the guy at the folk festival who had a concealed weapon permit, despite a drug and mental health problem, and ends up accidently shooting three people as he pistol whips his friend.
Yeah, every one with a concealed weapon permit is a well-trained upstanding citizen. I beleive that (NOT!)
Ok, so lets ban Drunk Driving, (oh we did that), how about drug use, (oh did that too), spouse abuse, (oh dang, did that as well), I know, we'll make Murder Illegal, (oh shoot, already done). So, just label all of us "Yahoo's" (your words) as being equivalent to him. That's the same as equating you with Stalin. Doesn't work. You will never be safe from everything. While I was a LEO I taught rape victims self-defense courses. You stated in an earlier post that the instructor was;
"However, I standby the serious point that I was trying to make humorously. You shouldn't take everything an instructor (of anything) tells you at face value. Part of an instructor's job is to pump you up and give you self-confidence so that you absorb the material being taught better."
Now I took most of your comment to keep it in context. You are right, I taught those women, to kick, scream, fight, punch and to do everything they could to stop the attack. But guess what, even with what I taught them, it wouldn't be enough if their attacker had a gun. The only true "Equalizer" there was a firearm. I you use pepper-spray, guess what, 5% of the population is immune to it and the last time I checked, EVERYONE is allergic to lead poisoning. I'm a big guy, (over 260 lbs. and over 6 ft., hence the Jelly Doughnut Joke) and I wouldn't stand a chance against someone with a gun who knew how to use it or if they got lucky. So I carry, concealed. I don't brandish it in anger ( I learned along time ago to control that), I don't stress out about it. If you met me on the street you'd never know I was carrying, unless something bad happened. I'm no wanna-be Hero, I just want to go home ALIVE and will take the steps necessary to raise my chances.
"Yeah, every one with a concealed weapon permit is a well-trained upstanding citizen. I beleive that (NOT!)"
I guess we agree here too, but like Government Workers, not all are bad? See when you throw everyone into an assumption, it can be turned around. No attack intended.
9-12er, 3%er, Oath Keeper, Vet and Ex-Cop
Μολὼν λαβέ (Come and Take Them!)
Any gun battle is uncertain with regard to the outcome. One thing is for sure, in these mass killings though…the shooter will not stop killing until he is out of ammo or taken down by someone with a gun.
Good luck with that "government issued angel" last I heard angels were banned because of the "Separation of Church and State", so I suggest you carry a gun because a cop is too heavy.
9-12er, 3%er, Oath Keeper, Vet and Ex-Cop
Μολὼν λαβέ (Come and Take Them!)
Obama = AntiChrist? No. Idiot? No Vain? Maybe. Marxist/Socialist? YES!
Fema Camps = Yes but not the paranoid version. Representative here in Florida proposed that several be built for the possibility of housing people after Hurricanes and such. Of course it was stated in a news conference that it "could" be used in times of "unrest" and boom! it is off to the races!
Youth Service Army= No BUT I will bring you a quote from your messiah's OWN mouth, in which he talks about HIS Civilian security force.
"We cannot continue to rely on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives we've set. We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded."
So, if you want, as he said not me, Abrams Tanks on street corners, Bradley Fighting Vehicles in your neighborhoods? Do I see this happening, I hope not but it could should the wrong incidence occur. And tell me, who would stand against them? You with a protest sign? Nah, They'd just run you down and you'd be listed as an accident, caused by the inexperienced driver.
http://media.graytvinc.com/images/crash+site+flig...
You will notice that the impact of the plane was near or at the Vertical on impact. This accounts for the limited area of debris at the crash site. With the impact speed at or near the speed of sound ( it would have accelerated to this speed in a dive) along with the amount of fuel on board, most if not all biological remains was destroyed. As to it being shot down, an Air to Air missile would have caused the plane to have exploded in the air causing a debris field scattered of a large (2-5 sqm depending on altitude) area, as well as if it had been hit with cannon fire from a fighter as these rounds are explosively tipped.
9-12er, 3%er, Oath Keeper, Vet and Ex-Cop
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